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14th Premiership place

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Poll Question: Which of the following should get the 14th place in the Prem?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
15 [20.27%]
9 [12.16%]
24 [32.43%]
2 [2.70%]
24 [32.43%]
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No 7 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 16:41
Looking at the title of this thread `who should get the fantasy 14th place . It must go to the next in line , the team that have proved their worth over a season ......or two !. It is not based on any other consideration and if it was what would that be ?.

The number of supporters, ground capacity, most financially stable and free of debt, the club who gives back the most to community rugby !, the team with the best set up to promote rugby and education giving young players a life after the short window of pro rugby.

Other considerations are geography / location, allowing an even spread throughout the country and considering the RFU six centres of excellence . The new arrangement for RFU / Premiership academies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 16:50
CVC are not subsidising the Premiership - they own a percentage of the TV rights  and they will take their money every season and will get their money back in a few years - and still own shares.

The Premiership sides are gambling that reduced debt payments plus CVC selling extra TV rights will make up for the money going to CVC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2020 at 12:01
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Looking at the title of this thread `who should get the fantasy 14th place . It must go to the next in line , the team that have proved their worth over a season ......or two !. It is not based on any other consideration and if it was what would that be ?.

The number of supporters, ground capacity, most financially stable and free of debt, the club who gives back the most to community rugby !, the team with the best set up to promote rugby and education giving young players a life after the short window of pro rugby.

Other considerations are geography / location, allowing an even spread throughout the country and considering the RFU six centres of excellence . The new arrangement for RFU / Premiership academies.

I cannot argue with your logic - yes 2nd should get the prize but perhaps a play off of the 2nd to 5th team would add excitement to the end of season the £20 million finale (based on possible monies over the following 5 years that team would get) - all fantasy of course because the RFU / PRL will get what they want.
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2020 at 20:09
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

CVC are not subsidising the Premiership - they own a percentage of the TV rights  and they will take their money every season and will get their money back in a few years - and still own shares.

The Premiership sides are gambling that reduced debt payments plus CVC selling extra TV rights will make up for the money going to CVC.

It is not a subsidy but the business required propping up and CVC recognised the opportunity. They may change the entire sport of Rugby Union, we will have to wait and see.
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2020 at 21:58
I think that you are right and wrong here No. 7.
CVC have certainly spotted a huge opportunity and have gone for it, but let’s get 1 thing clear here. They are venture capitalists and are only interested in 1 thing and 1 thing only..... profit. They do not care two hoots about rugby unless it grows and they can sell on at a 49 or 50% profit.

Typically a VC or PE company will have a 5 year plan before selling on. If they see the investment going south in this time it will be dumped at the best possible price.

In doing this deal rugby May have saved their bacon (for now at least) but they have signed a deal with the devil.

If there is to be a 14th PL side then, as already pointed out, it may not be the team that deserves to go up, but the one that will provide the most commercial return to the PL. My vote is torn between Pirates and Donny, but if pushed I would have to plump for Pirates if the stadium is to be built in time. If not, then Donny.

Ealing should finish 2nd but I’m afraid that they will be overlooked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fly Half Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2020 at 07:26
I wonder how many of the Premier clubs have already used up their CVC money? Worcester,Irish,Newcastle?

As mentioned above PE are absolutely ruthless and have only one objective,maximising their return. Anyone who thinks that they will say,never mind or pay when you can or just try your best,are living in cloud cuckoo land.

With the next tv deal almost certainly going to be lower,clubs may shortly have to live on 70% of a smaller pot.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trailfinder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2020 at 11:28
Originally posted by Brizzer Brizzer wrote:

I think that you are right and wrong here No. 7.
CVC have certainly spotted a huge opportunity and have gone for it, but let’s get 1 thing clear here. They are venture capitalists and are only interested in 1 thing and 1 thing only..... profit. They do not care two hoots about rugby unless it grows and they can sell on at a 49 or 50% profit.

Typically a VC or PE company will have a 5 year plan before selling on. If they see the investment going south in this time it will be dumped at the best possible price.

In doing this deal rugby May have saved their bacon (for now at least) but they have signed a deal with the devil.

If there is to be a 14th PL side then, as already pointed out, it may not be the team that deserves to go up, but the one that will provide the most commercial return to the PL. My vote is torn between Pirates and Donny, but if pushed I would have to plump for Pirates if the stadium is to be built in time. If not, then Donny.

Ealing should finish 2nd but I’m afraid that they will be overlooked.

I think this is a good point, if CVC are the main influencers then the club with the greatest revenue potential will be looked upon more favourably. With that in mind then, out of  Ealing, Doncaster and Pirates who has the greatest potential fan base? Maybe Donny should think about rebranding to appeal to a wider catchment area...LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2020 at 11:46
Originally posted by Trailfinder Trailfinder wrote:

Originally posted by Brizzer Brizzer wrote:

I think that you are right and wrong here No. 7.
CVC have certainly spotted a huge opportunity and have gone for it, but let’s get 1 thing clear here. They are venture capitalists and are only interested in 1 thing and 1 thing only..... profit. They do not care two hoots about rugby unless it grows and they can sell on at a 49 or 50% profit.

Typically a VC or PE company will have a 5 year plan before selling on. If they see the investment going south in this time it will be dumped at the best possible price.

In doing this deal rugby May have saved their bacon (for now at least) but they have signed a deal with the devil.

If there is to be a 14th PL side then, as already pointed out, it may not be the team that deserves to go up, but the one that will provide the most commercial return to the PL. My vote is torn between Pirates and Donny, but if pushed I would have to plump for Pirates if the stadium is to be built in time. If not, then Donny.

Ealing should finish 2nd but I’m afraid that they will be overlooked.

I think this is a good point, if CVC are the main influencers then the club with the greatest revenue potential will be looked upon more favourably. With that in mind then, out of  Ealing, Doncaster and Pirates who has the greatest potential fan base? Maybe Donny should think about rebranding to appeal to a wider catchment area...LOL

Pirates have the advantage that there is no other pro rugby in Cornwall and the only pro football is Truro City, who are now under the Pirates umbrella and are a long way off league status at the moment. Cornwall is a traditional rugby heartland and the potential to attract more support when we move to a new , more central, location, in Truro is definitely there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2020 at 16:57
Please correct me if I am wrong but CVC receive no money from club 'revenue'. I understand it is all about TV rights and advertising. The gate revenue goes to the club if you own your ground.

I wonder if it will be like formula one where you buy your way in and bring sponsors to the table. 


Edited by No 7 - 08 Aug 2020 at 17:06
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 15:32
Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

I wonder how many of the Premier clubs have already used up their CVC money? Worcester,Irish,Newcastle?

As mentioned above PE are absolutely ruthless and have only one objective,maximising their return. Anyone who thinks that they will say,never mind or pay when you can or just try your best,are living in cloud cuckoo land.

With the next tv deal almost certainly going to be lower,clubs may shortly have to live on 70% of a smaller pot.




Bristol have apparently used theirs to fund their impressive training facility
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 16:21
The CVC deal is for commercial rights. TV is just part of this, the largest part, but League, Cup sponsorship etc is also included.

It's a gamble for the clubs. They hope that CVC can get higher figures for the above and therefore the Premiership club share is financially larger on a smaller percentage of the cut. 

If the figures are not increased, and in a post covid world, it's looking less likely, then clubs will get less of the deals signed. With potentially a smaller amount coming from the RFU in the future the club s will be squeezed at both ends. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fly Half Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 16:26
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

I wonder how many of the Premier clubs have already used up their CVC money? Worcester,Irish,Newcastle?

As mentioned above PE are absolutely ruthless and have only one objective,maximising their return. Anyone who thinks that they will say,never mind or pay when you can or just try your best,are living in cloud cuckoo land.

With the next tv deal almost certainly going to be lower,clubs may shortly have to live on 70% of a smaller pot.




Bristol have apparently used theirs to fund their impressive training facility


Thanks Raider,

to be fair,I dont mind using the money to improve the facilities,its using it to pay off loans,increased salaries etc that I'm against. Once it's gone,it's gone !


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 18:16
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

The CVC deal is for commercial rights. TV is just part of this, the largest part, but League, Cup sponsorship etc is also included.

It's a gamble for the clubs. They hope that CVC can get higher figures for the above and therefore the Premiership club share is financially larger on a smaller percentage of the cut. 

If the figures are not increased, and in a post covid world, it's looking less likely, then clubs will get less of the deals signed. With potentially a smaller amount coming from the RFU in the future the club s will be squeezed at both ends. 

Commercial rights !. Will that include revenue from beer sales / bar takings , food and gate money ? possibly a share of sponsors contributions ?. I am not sure that is correct and however would it be policed and I am not saying that clubs cheat , steal and con anyone.......god forbid.

It can only be TV rights and sponsors from TV  I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 18:58
Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

I wonder how many of the Premier clubs have already used up their CVC money? Worcester,Irish,Newcastle?

As mentioned above PE are absolutely ruthless and have only one objective,maximising their return. Anyone who thinks that they will say,never mind or pay when you can or just try your best,are living in cloud cuckoo land.

With the next tv deal almost certainly going to be lower,clubs may shortly have to live on 70% of a smaller pot.




Bristol have apparently used theirs to fund their impressive training facility


Thanks Raider,

to be fair,I dont mind using the money to improve the facilities,its using it to pay off loans,increased salaries etc that I'm against. Once it's gone,it's gone !


With Bris being awash with their owner's cash, the CVC bounty was just fruit on the top.
Wasps, however, could only use it to chip away at a little of their massive year-on-year losses.
I'd think that's more the norm across the league.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 21:20
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

The CVC deal is for commercial rights. TV is just part of this, the largest part, but League, Cup sponsorship etc is also included.

It's a gamble for the clubs. They hope that CVC can get higher figures for the above and therefore the Premiership club share is financially larger on a smaller percentage of the cut. 

If the figures are not increased, and in a post covid world, it's looking less likely, then clubs will get less of the deals signed. With potentially a smaller amount coming from the RFU in the future the club s will be squeezed at both ends. 

Commercial rights !. Will that include revenue from beer sales / bar takings , food and gate money ? possibly a share of sponsors contributions ?. I am not sure that is correct and however would it be policed and I am not saying that clubs cheat , steal and con anyone.......god forbid.

It can only be TV rights and sponsors from TV  I believe.

Commercial rights don't include the individual club revenue but those held jointly by all clubs - which are the TV rights and the sponsorship rights to League, Cup etc. However, it could impact on individual clubs if they are currently sponsored by a rival product. 

For example if Club A is sponsored by Motorcar company A, but Motorcar Company B is the new league sponsor, there may be a ban on competing companies as part of the contract and Club A would have to lose their sponsor. 

What I can see happening is far more 'minor' sponsorship - Man of the Match sponsor league wide;  officail travel by X;  Y is the official beer of the league etc. The RFU do this very well and it will be interesting to see how any potential clashes are dealt with and who ultimately has the last word. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 08:19
Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Wasps, however, could only use it to chip away at a little of their massive year-on-year losses.
Didn't Wasps make a rights issue about five years ago which suddenly made them the richest club in Europe, and was going to enable them to compete with the top French clubs for world-class signings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 09:23
Wasps, allowed to get away with the move to Coventry, pitched it as a fantastic commercial move that would, indeed, make them the richest club.  I read the prospectus and, for an investor, the returns looked great.  But if they looked good to me how much was going to the rugby side?  So they take on a mountain of debt and the revenue stream doesn't really cover all the outgoings.  Hence the missed bond repayments and restructuring.

CVC was a gamble by the Premiership that increased revenues from broadcast rights and league sponsorship would more than cover the diluted shareholding.  It was always a gamble and one that C-19 has made far riskier.  The pious hope that the upfront cash would be used for infrastructure was just that, a hope.  Bristol may have used it for the fantastic training centre (and it is genuinely impressive - just so long as they look after the woodwork) but that project was already set to go, so the money was already going to be spent.   As for awash with money, Steve Lansdown didn't get to be a billionaire by running a free unicorn sanctuary.

So, CVC are already the 14th club and does the Premiership need yet another club to further dilute income?  It would really have to bring something to the table.  Ealing?  A poorly supported club in an already crowded part of the world?  Pirates?  I understand the romanticism attached to them but, as regular readers will know, I have always been dubious about the underlying realities.

Perhaps the Championship needs a club to do something like Wasps and move from its home to exploit a new marketplace in order for it to progress.  If that's what you mean by progress of course.  Sadly I think that the absence of a top club in the south is an area for exploitation, an area with a large well-off population and good transport.  Brighton maybe. Southampton or Bournemouth?  Alternatively, what could (Birmingham) Moseley achieve with the right financial backing if it could commercially exploit its catchment area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 09:52
I hear that Oxford is just crying out for a top-flight rugby club.  Just imagine what a well-run club could achieve by tapping into all that potential...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 11:55
Economically the Premiership should reduce the number of teams not increase them.
If it could find three or five owners willing to give up the unequal fight and walk away it would end up with aeight or ten team league and up to 50% extra TV reventue.

Except the TV audience might get fed up of seeing Leicester play Newcastle (two pick two at random) four times a season.

the logic for a 14th club is purely that economically they cannot afford to have the thirteenth club outside the Premiership - especially if the Championship drops in standard - and logistically 13 teams is a nightmare.

24 games over 26 weeks for a 13 team league probably means dropping the Mickey Mouse Cup.
26 games in 26 weeks brings an extra home game - so probably a net extra £100k in gate, wet sales etc.
But the extra gate is more than lost in lost TV revenue.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 14:00
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Economically the Premiership should reduce the number of teams not increase them.
If it could find three or five owners willing to give up the unequal fight and walk away it would end up with aeight or ten team league and up to 50% extra TV reventue.

Except the TV audience might get fed up of seeing Leicester play Newcastle (two pick two at random) four times a season.

the logic for a 14th club is purely that economically they cannot afford to have the thirteenth club outside the Premiership - especially if the Championship drops in standard - and logistically 13 teams is a nightmare.

24 games over 26 weeks for a 13 team league probably means dropping the Mickey Mouse Cup.
26 games in 26 weeks brings an extra home game - so probably a net extra £100k in gate, wet sales etc.
But the extra gate is more than lost in lost TV revenue.





Am I right in thinking the MM cup has already been dropped for the coming season?

If so, I would doubt it will re-appear.

I cannot agree that having a 13 team league is a nightmare - it gives each team 2 weeks off obviously at varying times.

Adding a 14th team increases each teams games by an additional 2, given the current climate of players having too much game time is this desirable? In fact is increasing the numbers from 12 desirable?
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