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A glimmer and signs of club rugby coming back

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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 20:04
Originally posted by castleparknight castleparknight wrote:

It looks like they would have to have two seasons in the championship - I wonder how many of their stars would remain then...


I saw an article the other day stating there were moves a foot for Saracens to join an expanded Premiership should the Championship not happen.

This is something that wouldn't surprise me at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 20:08
Originally posted by Sussexscots Sussexscots wrote:

Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

I think you'll find it's the virus and individuals behaviour which has scuppered the return,as opposed to Boris. How many people are you happy to die,so that you cant watch a bit of rugby?


Oh please...enough of the hysteria. Fit young Rugby players are more likely to die from falling down the stairs than the Wuhan sniffles.  The rest of us can make our own risk assessments. Even if a safe vaccine can be  developed its unlikely to be any more effective than the annual flu shot. 

 It's not just Rugby that won't recover from these Covid restrictions, It's theatre, cinema, live music...like sport, things that make life worth living. If players feel unsafe or have underlying health conditions then of course their feelings should be respected. Otherwise, Rishi Sunak is right.  It's time to stop putting our lives on hold and live without fear.

Non league football is going ahead. I went this afternoon. Crowd around 400. Spoke to a couple of guys that I know are in their late 80's. They told me they feel perfectly safe - more so than in the supermarket. 


Where is the logic in non-league football being allowed to have crowds - most of whom are not seated?

When Premiership Rugby, EPL and EFL football are not allowed any crowd despite most stadia being all-seater?

I can only presume the powers that be have forgotten to ban non-league football crowds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sussexscots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 20:44
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Sussexscots Sussexscots wrote:

Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

I think you'll find it's the virus and individuals behaviour which has scuppered the return,as opposed to Boris. How many people are you happy to die,so that you cant watch a bit of rugby?


Oh please...enough of the hysteria. Fit young Rugby players are more likely to die from falling down the stairs than the Wuhan sniffles.  The rest of us can make our own risk assessments. Even if a safe vaccine can be  developed its unlikely to be any more effective than the annual flu shot. 

 It's not just Rugby that won't recover from these Covid restrictions, It's theatre, cinema, live music...like sport, things that make life worth living. If players feel unsafe or have underlying health conditions then of course their feelings should be respected. Otherwise, Rishi Sunak is right.  It's time to stop putting our lives on hold and live without fear.

Non league football is going ahead. I went this afternoon. Crowd around 400. Spoke to a couple of guys that I know are in their late 80's. They told me they feel perfectly safe - more so than in the supermarket. 


Where is the logic in non-league football being allowed to have crowds - most of whom are not seated?

When Premiership Rugby, EPL and EFL football are not allowed any crowd despite most stadia being all-seater?

I can only presume the powers that be have forgotten to ban non-league football crowds.

Well by the same token, where's the logic in allowing BLM and XR protest marches/gatherings?

 If they've forgotten about Non league football, then thank goodness as it's an oasis of a little sanity in an  otherwise cheerless desert.

Many non league Football  clubs won't survive without fans, gate receipts and bar takings. I imagine many Rugby clubs are in the same boat.

I went to the Brighton v Chelsea game at the Amex in August.  Very well organised. People behaving sensibly. No problems whatsoever. Felt perfectly safe.

If it's ok for people to gather ad hoc to protest about whatever is boiling their pish, why can't people be allowed to watch sport sensibly  in a controlled and ordered fashion? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 21:50
Originally posted by Sussexscots Sussexscots wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Sussexscots Sussexscots wrote:

Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

I think you'll find it's the virus and individuals behaviour which has scuppered the return,as opposed to Boris. How many people are you happy to die,so that you cant watch a bit of rugby?


Oh please...enough of the hysteria. Fit young Rugby players are more likely to die from falling down the stairs than the Wuhan sniffles.  The rest of us can make our own risk assessments. Even if a safe vaccine can be  developed its unlikely to be any more effective than the annual flu shot. 

 It's not just Rugby that won't recover from these Covid restrictions, It's theatre, cinema, live music...like sport, things that make life worth living. If players feel unsafe or have underlying health conditions then of course their feelings should be respected. Otherwise, Rishi Sunak is right.  It's time to stop putting our lives on hold and live without fear.

Non league football is going ahead. I went this afternoon. Crowd around 400. Spoke to a couple of guys that I know are in their late 80's. They told me they feel perfectly safe - more so than in the supermarket. 


Where is the logic in non-league football being allowed to have crowds - most of whom are not seated?

When Premiership Rugby, EPL and EFL football are not allowed any crowd despite most stadia being all-seater?

I can only presume the powers that be have forgotten to ban non-league football crowds.

Well by the same token, where's the logic in allowing BLM and XR protest marches/gatherings?

 If they've forgotten about Non league football, then thank goodness as it's an oasis of a little sanity in an  otherwise cheerless desert.

Many non league Football  clubs won't survive without fans, gate receipts and bar takings. I imagine many Rugby clubs are in the same boat.

I went to the Brighton v Chelsea game at the Amex in August.  Very well organised. People behaving sensibly. No problems whatsoever. Felt perfectly safe.

If it's ok for people to gather ad hoc to protest about whatever is boiling their pish, why can't people be allowed to watch sport sensibly  in a controlled and ordered fashion? 

It's not the crowds, it's the safety of players which is holding the restart up.

Close contacts in scrums, mauls etc where "fit young players" could catch the virus, pass it on to others less able to withstand it's effects. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sussexscots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 22:08
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Sussexscots Sussexscots wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Sussexscots Sussexscots wrote:

Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

I think you'll find it's the virus and individuals behaviour which has scuppered the return,as opposed to Boris. How many people are you happy to die,so that you cant watch a bit of rugby?


Oh please...enough of the hysteria. Fit young Rugby players are more likely to die from falling down the stairs than the Wuhan sniffles.  The rest of us can make our own risk assessments. Even if a safe vaccine can be  developed its unlikely to be any more effective than the annual flu shot. 

 It's not just Rugby that won't recover from these Covid restrictions, It's theatre, cinema, live music...like sport, things that make life worth living. If players feel unsafe or have underlying health conditions then of course their feelings should be respected. Otherwise, Rishi Sunak is right.  It's time to stop putting our lives on hold and live without fear.

Non league football is going ahead. I went this afternoon. Crowd around 400. Spoke to a couple of guys that I know are in their late 80's. They told me they feel perfectly safe - more so than in the supermarket. 


Where is the logic in non-league football being allowed to have crowds - most of whom are not seated?

When Premiership Rugby, EPL and EFL football are not allowed any crowd despite most stadia being all-seater?

I can only presume the powers that be have forgotten to ban non-league football crowds.

Well by the same token, where's the logic in allowing BLM and XR protest marches/gatherings?

 If they've forgotten about Non league football, then thank goodness as it's an oasis of a little sanity in an  otherwise cheerless desert.

Many non league Football  clubs won't survive without fans, gate receipts and bar takings. I imagine many Rugby clubs are in the same boat.

I went to the Brighton v Chelsea game at the Amex in August.  Very well organised. People behaving sensibly. No problems whatsoever. Felt perfectly safe.

If it's ok for people to gather ad hoc to protest about whatever is boiling their pish, why can't people be allowed to watch sport sensibly  in a controlled and ordered fashion? 

It's not the crowds, it's the safety of players which is holding the restart up.

Close contacts in scrums, mauls etc where "fit young players" could catch the virus, pass it on to others less able to withstand it's effects. 


So you're  not actually positing an argument about the safety of the players. Rather you are citing a perception of potential risk to people with whom they may subsequently come into contact?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kempstonblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 07:36
Safety of players remains paramount.
Hearing local radio, after a football league team had a positive test. They spoke about the £x thousands in testing privately.
It seems tests are carried out at Premier League on a regular basis.
But at lower levels, it’s temperature checks and looking for symptoms. I really imagine what rugby at lower levels needs is a reliable testing system, that can be done at a reasonable costs. Once thats found the question of what level spectators can attend. I think it’s only Prem, Championship, National 1 that might be affected more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 09:26
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by castleparknight castleparknight wrote:

It looks like they would have to have two seasons in the championship - I wonder how many of their stars would remain then...


I saw an article the other day stating there were moves a foot for Saracens to join an expanded Premiership should the Championship not happen.

This is something that wouldn't surprise me at all.

That would be typical of the protectionism we have come to expect from the Premiership.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 14:19
I am very fearful that this will spell the end of tier 2 rugby in England. Quite simply there has to be a league season, fans have to be able to attend, clubs have to have a full compliment of 11 home league fixtures. Without this, my concern is that all but a very small handful of Championship clubs will fold. Without any income (of note), how can they survive?.....very very worried now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 14:44
Tier 2 clubs will only survive if they change from full time to part time players/coaches immediately. There has never been enough money generated by the clubs, even with a grant of £500k each year from the RFU/PRL, for the majority of them to break even. RFU money will no longer be forthcoming. Saracens and possibly Ealing have enough money to be full time Premiership clubs-let them go up into a 14 team Premiership, getting rid of the unloved Premiership Cup to accommodate the extra matches. None of the rest of the Championship clubs had anywhere near the millions it costs to run a Premiership team each season and certainly will not have going forward. If in the fullness of time a club has the financial firepower to enter the Premiership expand the league to 15.  Premiership full time, everything below part time. A change to part time payment at level 2 and no payment at a good number of the levels below has to be the sensible way forward.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 15:51
It might be a sensible way to go - however there are what, say 500 people directly employed in professional rugby in the Championship and a number of others who support the process who are reliant on this for their livelihood - so being sensible we make them all redundant and negotiate new contracts? I am sure that would go down like a lead balloon.

Yes, there is an air of inevitability about the Championship becoming semi-professional at some point in the future - but a robust pathway for player development, and transitioning full time Pro players to part time etc. has to be implemented first for the greater good or the Premiership will be next. And then the game will crumble all together and 20 years down the road where will the game be? Friendlies with local teams....

Perhaps the cronies at RFU should be doing the job voluntarily, or performance related pay - voted on by the clubs who get to reflect on how well the individuals performed in the last year to determine whether they get paid or not.....imagine all the funds available to be diverted to rugby development then? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 18:21
Compared to many industries 500 people from one industry losing their jobs has been small fry of late and will be even smaller fry come the end of the furlough scheme. This season only 5 Championship clubs are full time so the figure more likely 250. The RFU have not run the finances of Championship clubs for the last 10 years -they have propped them up to the tune of over £500k each season. The Premiership clubs will have to get better at identifying and developing young talent-not discard more than 60% of Academy players at the end of their Academy contract as currently happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2020 at 12:07
Not disputing that 500 is not a lot in comparison to other industries - but when you are one of that number it is very important to them and their families. Your statement of make everything below the Prem part time / amateur  is more key to the topic - a transitional plan should be put in place to facilitate that happening not just dump 500 (adjust as necessary) people on the unemployed list because the RFU moves the goalpost after plans already put in place..... this is not the fault of the pandemic this is the RFU mismanaging a crisis and leaping to the easiest conclusion first. Perhaps they should remove their blinkers for a while.

As for the Prem identifying talent - where will this talent develop if the pyramid beneath the Prem crumbles away? I refer you to the state of the game in 20 years made earlier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2020 at 16:51
Originally posted by marigold marigold wrote:

Compared to many industries 500 people from one industry losing their jobs has been small fry of late and will be even smaller fry come the end of the furlough scheme. This season only 5 Championship clubs are full time so the figure more likely 250. The RFU have not run the finances of Championship clubs for the last 10 years -they have propped them up to the tune of over £500k each season. The Premiership clubs will have to get better at identifying and developing young talent-not discard more than 60% of Academy players at the end of their Academy contract as currently happens.

Even running a semi-pro side is not cheap. The standards that are expected at Championship level still have to be met and these cost money. The pro element of the club still needs to be paid. If there is no rugby or rugby without fans, where does this money come from?
Sponsors will not sponsor without someone there to see their name around the club.
But it does go deeper. The Sunday Times published the P+L of the PL clubs from 2018. Only 1 club made a profit...Exeter at just under £1m. Wasps lost over £9m!!...To be fair, some of those costs would be due to relocation, but even so these deficits are significant. Now add in another season of that and then add in the Covid factor. Some pockets might be deep, but they will certainly have a bottom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fly Half Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 09:07
The only reason Exeter made a 'profit' was that their main sponsor pumped in even more money than usual. Their sponsorship is not on 'market terms',its just giving the club money.

I see the premiership clubs want government money. Whats happened to the approx £15 mill each club got from CVC?

Surely even the players dont expect the govt to fund loss making/zombie professional sports clubs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 16:57
Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

The only reason Exeter made a 'profit' was that their main sponsor pumped in even more money than usual. Their sponsorship is not on 'market terms',its just giving the club money.

I see the premiership clubs want government money. Whats happened to the approx £15 mill each club got from CVC?

Surely even the players dont expect the govt to fund loss making/zombie professional sports clubs?



Long gone I suspect.

Professional Rigby has lived beyond its means since it started. It has been bailed out by RFU and owner largesse.

However, you could argue it is as viable as a lot of companies taking the governments money. It also employs a lot of people, caterers, stewards etc beyond the obvious players. So why shouldn't it access money like lame ducks in other industries?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 19:35
I think any sport wanting support should also be looking at wages and the governance wages/costs and make sure they are appropriate.  This applies to football mostly but can apply to the rugby Premiership (although many did take a cut). To then help those clubs who do not have the funds the big boys have.

Some of these clubs will be “struggling” due to the player wages (especially football), ultimately if the players don’t have a club to play at they would have to change their career or accept a lower wage elsewhere as they would be so much supply of players. 

Players should show more support to their clubs and the admin staff who help them to earn the money they do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 13:14
Eventually rugby will return and costs will need to be much lower than the past and although no one will want to hear it consumers/supporters will have to pay more to watch and drink beer and eat pies in the bars or on the touchlines. The deep pocket clubs will move up the pyramid and the "have nots" will slip down the leagues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 14:54
London centric Rugby Union here we come - it is harder to tempt top quality players on semi-pro wages if we don't have the chance to offer good salaries in other "jobs" to supplement the playing wage. I can't see Doncaster being tempting to semi-pro players when there aren't the suitable jobs outside of rugby on offer (probably why we remained fulltime Pro)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 16:01
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Eventually rugby will return and costs will need to be much lower than the past and although no one will want to hear it consumers/supporters will have to pay more to watch and drink beer and eat pies in the bars or on the touchlines. The deep pocket clubs will move up the pyramid and the "have nots" will slip down the leagues.


Nothing changes then? Apart from the probability that there will be less haves and a lot more have-nots
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 08:52
As the chances of a full season this term seem increasingly remote how about just going ahead in the Spring with a version of the Cup competition involving the 12 Championship clubs in four groups of 3 (Jersey could have Sarries & Ealing please) with each team playing the others in their group home and away. Top two in each group progress to knock out stages and ultimate winner gains promotion. 
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