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Adult Male Future Competitions Structure Online Co

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paddym View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddym Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 22:43
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Good point, Waltzer, I ignored the South teams as well. I don’t think it makes much difference, the same level transfer needed.

Camquin, good analysis! I suspect that Level 2 will actually go to 14 teams as that seems to come through very strongly in the RFU survey results for Levels 3/4. The NCA are insistent that there be 1 League at Level 3 but have accepted a 14 team League.

The current proposal will allow second teams to join the leagues but no higher than Level 6. Richmond are an exception, their second team is a Level 4 side and their third team a Level 4/5 team.

Don't they already have 2nd teams in the league (just in legal roundabout ways by "legally separate clubs") with London Irish Amateur, London Scottish Lions, Ealing 1871, Wasps FC, Saracens Amateurs, Harlequins Amateur, Sale FC, St Jacques and London Welsh Amateur (I know they're currently using the LW name but they were the second team) to name but a few who already skirt around the "no second teams" rule?  Not to mention the majority of Sussex 2 is made up of 2nd teams.


How do you work that one out? Other than Sale FC none of those clubs have any help player wise from their parent club as you insinuate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 23:38
Paddym 
Actually somewhere in the copy and paste I lost the last column with the entire London South Central league 
Which featured LIWG with the other Surrey Hants and Sussex London 1 and 2 sides.

Unfortunately the excel file is on the other computer.

Actually Surrey has far too many good sides,while Sussex has too few  so while everywhere else I would recommend county leagues at the level below  I would move split Surrey and merge rural Surrey with Sussex But frankly from Redhill it is probably as easy to get to Brighton as Mitcham.

There is one one side missing but it was not LIWG.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddym Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 00:06
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Paddym 
Actually somewhere in the copy and paste I lost the last column with the entire London South Central league 
Which featured LIWG with the other Surrey Hants and Sussex London 1 and 2 sides.

Unfortunately the excel file is on the other computer.

Actually Surrey has far too many good sides,while Sussex has too few  so while everywhere else I would recommend county leagues at the level below  I would move split Surrey and merge rural Surrey with Sussex But frankly from Redhill it is probably as easy to get to Brighton as Mitcham.

There is one one side missing but it was not LIWG.

Ill take your word for it!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 07:42
I thought they are pushing for 12 Team Leagues from Level 5?

The entry of 2nd XV is aimed primarily at Clubs from Levels 3-5, starting at the bottom of the League structure or close to it. There is a glass ceiling that says a Clubs 2nd XV can't go any higher than Level 6 (no idea how that is going to work) and lets just say Club A in National 1 does a original Richmond or London Scottish and gets dumped the bottom of the Leagues for some reason, do their 2nd XV then at Level 6 have to follow them? Indeed taking CQs implication that Richmond 2s are really good they could be at Level 6 within 2 or 3  seasons. Meanwhile Clubs that have been trying for x years to get up to Level 6 or higher will find their way blocked by a bunch of semi-Pro's from a higher placed National League Clubs. Change is needed, adding 2nd XVs is not.

CQ, so local lower leagues like in Lancashire seems a sensible idea now?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 07:55
Piffpaff, that could be a key problem. How will a current Level 6 team who are not allowed to pay players feel about playing League and Cup matches against a Level 3 second team who are largely paid players? There is a desire to harmonise second team rugby across all Divisions, with the commendable aim of achieving competitive rugby to enhance participation. I’ve already looked across the NCA at how this could be done, without success, so I wish the RFU Competitions people luck in sorting it! I think it’s actually a more difficult job than sorting the first team Leagues!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 11:28
Well so far the competitions committee seem to have used a the back of a fag packet  as the beer mat had the gin on it.
So I will not hold my breath.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 17:09
Hal given the potential consequences of Covid 19 i cannot see many , if any, 2nd team players of level 3 clubs being paid. The majority of level 3 clubs do not even run a 2nd team let alone be able to pay them going forward.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 18:05
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

I thought they are pushing for 12 Team Leagues from Level 5?

The entry of 2nd XV is aimed primarily at Clubs from Levels 3-5, starting at the bottom of the League structure or close to it. There is a glass ceiling that says a Clubs 2nd XV can't go any higher than Level 6 (no idea how that is going to work) and lets just say Club A in National 1 does a original Richmond or London Scottish and gets dumped the bottom of the Leagues for some reason, do their 2nd XV then at Level 6 have to follow them? Indeed taking CQs implication that Richmond 2s are really good they could be at Level 6 within 2 or 3  seasons. Meanwhile Clubs that have been trying for x years to get up to Level 6 or higher will find their way blocked by a bunch of semi-Pro's from a higher placed National League Clubs. Change is needed, adding 2nd XVs is not.

CQ, so local lower leagues like in Lancashire seems a sensible idea now?

Just watch how quick London Welsh Amateur have been rising up the league since the professional club's liquidation and that probably gives you your answer on what clubs really think. 

But when it comes to second teams and indeed third teams in the Sussex leagues for example. Mostly though this happens in the merit leagues. The 3rd team can't go above or in the same league as the 2s so they will get blocked from promotion or indeed if the 2nd team gets relegated, so too does the 3rd team.  So that's what would happen if Club A went bust and went to the bottom, the 2nd team would go in the merit leagues or probably be on league hiatus for a year. However, if you do as the teams I mentioned above did and go for the "separate club" angle, the "separate club" just takes the name of the bust club and don't have to start at the bottom  which is what London Welsh are doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SmilingD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 20:59
Having sat in on the L5/6 webinar on Thursday afternoon, a number of things became clear to me: that there was virtually nobody in the audience saying anything other than they want 14-team leagues at L5; that the audience were drawing a distinction between whether players were playing less rugby because they wanted to, or because their 'real life' obligations, injuries or something else meant they couldn't make themselves available; and that everybody present - audience or presenters - were assuming that eventually the post Covid rugby landscape will be similar to what was there before.

Other things were not clear: the geographic split has been talked about in this thread but is far from thought through; the slides presented had to be corrected after the event because they showed the wrong number of leagues at L5; who is going to be responsible for administering the six L5 leagues - presumably not the current 4 divisions.

And the issue of lower XVs entering the league was only briefly discussed, albeit there seemed to be broad support for the idea - but having some experience of this (at lower level leagues) it is not without its problems - there is a 100 player limit for the registration system just now, that is rapidly reached by a club that had 3 XVs in the league system and - in effect - has to be ignored at the lower level; how do we ensure that the integrity of leagues are maintained and there isn't an en masse loading of higher players into a lower team if it suits the club to do so? Is a club allowed to forfeit a first XV match and still play their second XV fixture? How many times can a player play for a higher team and still be eligible to play further down? All of these have been problems in leagues I am familiar with - and if people will bend the rules to gain a point or two at Level 10, I am pretty sure that we need to watch for it at L6.

I am also of the view that there is no particular reason why a structure has to be uniform across the whole country - appreciate this forum is for national leagues and national clubs, but below that level if what suits the North does not suit the South West, why should they be put in the same straightjacket? 

My observation, for what it is worth, is that this work - regardless of its merits - is not ready for implementation, even if we were looking at a normal 2020-21 season. But given the likelihood of a significantly shortened season the chances of it providing a sound basis for such a radical realignment in 2021 is close to zero.

Time for the Council to assert itself
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Muttley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 11:00
can anyone provide a link to the webinar from 4th june re L5/6 clubs ? Apparently its available to view for the next 2 weeks ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 11:20
Got a feeling its not working


The event is currently undergoing maintenance.
Please try again later.                                             WorkCast


Are we surprised? Apparently the L3/4 went off air during the presentation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dalesman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 16:31
Given the RFU precarious financial position, and the budget cuts that will become inevitable, going to three leagues x 14 at level 4 will surely mean that NCA will have to give up the current provision of Touch Judges at Level 4. Or that the Clubs will have to pay for them in full.

Nobody seems to have thought of that, yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 17:02
Originally posted by Dalesman Dalesman wrote:

Given the RFU precarious financial position, and the budget cuts that will become inevitable, going to three leagues x 14 at level 4 will surely mean that NCA will have to give up the current provision of Touch Judges at Level 4. Or that the Clubs will have to pay for them in full.

Nobody seems to have thought of that, yet.


Covering N1 and N2

3 divisions of 16 equates to 24 matches per week

4 divisions of 14 equates to 28 matches per week

This equates to 8 extra TJs per week - hardly going to break the bank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 18:39
I believe that the RFU will be withdrawing all travel subsidies from clubs for the coming season , not sure how they will expect clubs to pay for Referees and assistants which came out of the full subsidy last year. Clubs at Level 3 already had £5150 deducted and at Level 4 $£4150 from their Travel which left some clubs effectively owing the RFU money and some clubs at Level 3 got as Little as £900 net. 
If that is the case it will put more pressure on Level 3 clubs to consider regionalisation especially as the South dominates the league. The cost of Travel will be a big burden from the start as many clubs will have zero income. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 18:49
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

I believe that the RFU will be withdrawing all travel subsidies from clubs for the coming season , not sure how they will expect clubs to pay for Referees and assistants which came out of the full subsidy last year. Clubs at Level 3 already had £5150 deducted and at Level 4 $£4150 from their Travel which left some clubs effectively owing the RFU money and some clubs at Level 3 got as Little as £900 net. 
If that is the case it will put more pressure on Level 3 clubs to consider regionalisation especially as the South dominates the league. The cost of Travel will be a big burden from the start as many clubs will have zero income. 


Which seems to be exactly what the RFU wants.

I think it is about time the Premiership stood on its own 2 feet and provided some support to lower levels as in the model of Premier League Football
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 19:57
Unfortunately rugby clubs like many other businesses will have to cut their cloth accordingly going forward. I would imagine most  clubs will have membership fees or season ticket holders paying at the beginning of the season to assist with the first few away matches. The amount paid to players and coaches may have to significantly reduce. Whilst at level 4 there may be increased regionalisation it still remains, under current proposals, national at Level 3.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 22:10
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

I believe that the RFU will be withdrawing all travel subsidies from clubs for the coming season , not sure how they will expect clubs to pay for Referees and assistants which came out of the full subsidy last year. Clubs at Level 3 already had £5150 deducted and at Level 4 $£4150 from their Travel which left some clubs effectively owing the RFU money and some clubs at Level 3 got as Little as £900 net. 
If that is the case it will put more pressure on Level 3 clubs to consider regionalisation especially as the South dominates the league. The cost of Travel will be a big burden from the start as many clubs will have zero income. 

If that's the case, then N2S have about 25 return plane tickets to pay for. for Guernsey And as for LSE,  North Walsham in northern Norfolk and Havant are going to be in a spot of bother. Which in turn is going to see rugby be centralised in big towns/cities with good transport connections rather than smaller isolated outposts. This is not something I'd want to see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 'Hopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2020 at 22:38
RFU Plans for next season. 
What if the Hokey Kokey really IS what it's all about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 00:08
Presentations are at 

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/adult-male-competition-structure-consultation-feedback

I do not want to lead the jury, but I just sent an email to 


Well actually that is not trues ...
I do want to lead the jury. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 06:57
Interesting read. The four priorities underpinning the proposals are:
1. Player centricity / player welfare
2. Appropriate travel time/distance
3. Quality of player experience/quality of competition
4. Club sustainability

To me, there is but one, Club Sustainability. 

The loss of 2 home games at National 1 could be net income of up to £20,000. Even allowing for Pay/Play arrangements, the financial impact will be significant. 

Clubs are likely to have made substantial infrastructure / cent arrangements,  facilitated through RFU loans for one, which need to be repaid out of the bottom line, which is where any game reduction financial pressure will be felt.

Whose opinion is more important, DoR or Treasurer? 
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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