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Topic ClosedAmpthill Appeal?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 14:03

The full section of that element of the judgement reads

39. In relation to the breach of the Game Regulations, we order that the Ampthill v Luctonians game played on 1st May 2010 be declared a perverse result. This will result in all Ampthill’s results being expunged to produce an equitable table with Ampthill being placed at the bottom. We did consider whether we should have ordered Ampthill to be relegated to the League below. We concluded that it would not be in the interests of the Clubs in that League to have to play a Club which had been promoted from it the previous season and, but for this Judgment, would have played two Leagues above the next. It is for this reason that we have declared that Ampthill will play at Level 5 next season.

The results are still expunged but despite being nominally placed bottom Ampthill will not be relegated.  The effect on the rest of the table is to place Hinckley top, Luton second and Luctonians third (Luctonians lose 5 points, Hinckley 1 point and Luton no points).  On that basis Hinckley do indeed take Ampthill place but Luctonians have no place in the play-offs and hence shouldn't be considered for promotion. 

As I stated earlier I don't think this was a consequence the Competitions Committeee intended. To get the current position they would have to award Luctonians a win with no bonus point.  I have searched but I can't find that in the judgement anywhere. 
 
I understand this is a somewhat pedantic view of the situation but I think it is strictly correct and one that needs to be addressed.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 14:50
but that means Luton would have to play Stockport to see who gets promoted?  or would Luton just get promoted automatically?  Unfair on Stockport if thats the case.  Ultimately - the RFU have not helped this situation one bit!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 14:59
Originally posted by The Bear The Bear wrote:

but that means Luton would have to play Stockport to see who gets promoted?  or would Luton just get promoted automatically?  Unfair on Stockport if thats the case.  Ultimately - the RFU have not helped this situation one bit!!
Harsh.  letting Ampthill's DoR get away with it would have been the real balls up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 15:06
Completely agree - but sorting it out from here forward will not be easy with clubs fighting their own case and subsequent appeals!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 16:24
The ampthill members of this forum seem to have gone (understandably) quiet. I was just wondering who they thought deserved promotion now they have been denied?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 16:52
The festering sore of the Ampthill issue has been around for some months. The Midlands have allowed this situation to continue unabated without having a workable plan B. A little foresight and common sense would have brought the Ampthill / Luctonians game forward even though some rearranged meaningless fixtures may have had to have been played later or even not at all. The issue of Ampthill resting players would then have been immaterial and nobody complaining.
The original appeal against the 10 point penalty would probably have been heard earlier and inencumbered by the second charge thereby having limited if any affect on the play-off other than perhaps a one week delay. Whilst this is easy to say after the event and the gift of hindsight is only available to those who don't have to make the decisions the absence of a bit of nouse is amazing.    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 18:58
Originally posted by scouse blue scouse blue wrote:

The festering sore of the Ampthill issue has been around for some months. The Midlands have allowed this situation to continue unabated without having a workable plan B. A little foresight and common sense would have brought the Ampthill / Luctonians game forward even though some rearranged meaningless fixtures may have had to have been played later or even not at all. The issue of Ampthill resting players would then have been immaterial and nobody complaining.
The original appeal against the 10 point penalty would probably have been heard earlier and inencumbered by the second charge thereby having limited if any affect on the play-off other than perhaps a one week delay. Whilst this is easy to say after the event and the gift of hindsight is only available to those who don't have to make the decisions the absence of a bit of nouse is amazing.    
 
Can't agree with this one. You can't mess around with the fixtures because one of your clubs has done something a bit dodgy. After all, we are all presumed innocent until proven guilty. Ampthill broke the rules more than once and they alone must shoulder the blame for the current situation. It is also clear that the RFU ruling needed clarification on its implications and I will accept that they may not have considered them all when making their decision (to be charitable, it may not have been within their remit).
 
I think the lack of background noise from Ampthill and their supporters suggests common sense has prevailed and the club will try to keep a low profile for the next two or three decades (RFU has a long collective memory)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 19:26
wouldnt the simple thing be to promo
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 19:45
Whilst messing around as you say with the fixtures may not be something one would do instinctively, you need to remember these were rearranged games and to stick to the next available date whatever the complications shows a complete absence of flexibility. When clubs are still playing league games after the normal structured end of season fixtures, it's obvious that most of those games do not involve promotion or relegation. There therefore becomes an opportunity to "mess around" as the alternative is the complete Huckleberry up that we have today.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2010 at 09:16

The original Ampthill judgement was on 18th May – 3 weeks ago – yet there is still deafening silence from the RFU regarding promotion from National Three.

 

The facts, and the RFU judgement, are crystal clear:

 

38. In respect of the offence of deliberately attempting to mislead the Appeal Panel, the appropriate penalty is that Ampthill will forfeit promotion and will play at Level 5 in season 2010-2011. No other sanction appears as appropriate to us. The purpose of this sanction is to ensure that those found guilty of wrongdoing will not be allowed to profit from such wrongdoing.

 

39. In relation to the breach of the Game Regulations, we order that the Ampthill v Luctonians game played on 1st May 2010 be declared a perverse result. This will result in all Ampthill’s results being expunged to produce an equitable table with Ampthill being placed at the bottom. We did consider whether we should have ordered Ampthill to be relegated to the League below. We concluded that it would not be in the interests of the Clubs in that League to have to play a Club which had been promoted from it the previous season and, but for this Judgment, would have played two Leagues above the next. It is for this reason that we have declared that Ampthill will play at Level 5 next season.

 

This means that:

  • Ampthill will not be promoted, and will play at Level 5 (Midlands or London still to be decided).
  • Luctonians will have the 5 points for the Ampthill game removed, giving them 84 points, and third place in the league.
  • The final league placings are;

1st  = Hinckley on 87 points, 18 wins, and a Points Diff of +266

2nd  = Luton on 87 points, 17 wins and a Points Diff of +480

3rd  = Luctonians on 84 points

14th = Ampthill on 0 points

          N.B. Number of wins takes precedence over Points Diff

 

The promotion requirements are then clear;

  • Hinckley are in 1st place and should be promoted
  • Luctonians are in 3rd place and should not be promoted
  • This leaves the remaining promotion slot to be decided between Luton (2nd in Nat 3 Mids) and Stockport (2nd in Nat 3 North).

 

The Luton or Stockport decision is a difficult one, as Stockport lost to Luctonians in a game that is now irrelevant.  One option may be to promote them both as National Two South was one side short last season due to the demise of Mount’s Bay.  

 

Whatever the decision the RFU owe it to the game to come out with an announcement very quickly.  They have had three weeks since the judgement to do so.  Anything that involves Hinckley not being promoted, or Luctonians being promoted, will be in direct contravention to the RFU Disciplinary Panel judgement, and a disservice to the clubs concerned and the game in general.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2010 at 09:33
Only two clubs were relegated from N2S as they only started with 15 teams, which unfortunately doesn't help matters. The rugby season is over, so no second chance for Stockport which if it happened would be contrary to natural justice. So over to the RFU for some decisive pronouncement.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2010 at 09:44
I understand that Ampthill were given 14 days to appeal from the date the judgement in written form became public ie June 2nd. They have appealed and the date for the hearing is Tuesday 15th June. Hopefully decisions on all aspects will not suffer further delay!!!!!! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2010 at 10:08
Good grief - Does this mean that there will be no decision till middle of next week!!!!
 
And they are appealing again!!! - They could end up in Bedfordshire 5!!
 
Have heard that Broadstreet are definitely relegated to Nat 3 Mids (there were rumours aplenty that they would get a reprieve)
 
Also heard that Malvern might be heading SW?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2010 at 14:24
Originally posted by Amazed Amazed wrote:

The original Ampthill judgement was on 18th May – 3 weeks ago – yet there is still deafening silence from the RFU regarding promotion from National Three.

 

The facts, and the RFU judgement, are crystal clear:

 

...

 

The promotion requirements are then clear;

  • Hinckley are in 1st place and should be promoted
  • Luctonians are in 3rd place and should not be promoted
  • This leaves the remaining promotion slot to be decided between Luton (2nd in Nat 3 Mids) and Stockport (2nd in Nat 3 North).

...

The Luton or Stockport decision is a difficult one, as Stockport lost to Luctonians in a game that is now irrelevant.  One option may be to promote them both as National Two South was one side short last season due to the demise of Mount’s Bay.  

 
So everything is crystal clear or at least clear - except the outcome?!!!!!!
 
(no disrespect, Amazed, and welcome to the forum)


Edited by hammer - 10 Jun 2010 at 14:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2010 at 14:32
This had got silly along time ago and is now bordering on farcical!!! As someone who is directly involved with running a team in this league it would be nice to know who we are playing against at some point and where, to enable us to start planning a variety of things!!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2010 at 17:11
Well, from a non first team Ampthill perspective, I'd say the decision to expunge all of our results is a little farcical as it has now created this mess. The simple thing to have done would have been to recommend Stockport for promotion and one I would wholeheartedly agree with.
 
No offence meant to Hinckley but who is to say Lucs would definitley lost? Yes, on paper against a full strength A's team they may well have.  But on a hard ground (it gets really hard on the sandy ground as mentioned in the RFU report), with Twickenham the next week, there is absolutely no way I'd have risked injury and would happily have let Luc's through! And let's be honest, most of us would if it meant we didn't miss what would have been one of, if not the biggest game of our lives.
 
By the way, the RFU report seemed fair enough and the decision was probably right re the Kettering game and subsequent cover up. It wasn't however established how they came by the information that some players went to the international and so there was a complete sense of amateurism on both sides, and a little speculation from the panel.
 
Those responsible at A's should be ashamed of their actions, and probably more than embarrassed by the ludicrous attempt at a cover up (love the "Ampthill Weather station"one man band, lived there over 30 years and never heard of it!). However, I still feel that as long as Ampthill play 1st team registered players, they should be entitled to play whomever they want, whenever they want and so continue to disagree with this part strongly
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2010 at 22:53
I see the weatherman carries an archive............so 18th April is clear to see.............and carries readings for every 5 minutes....but the archived weather-webcam is missing



Edited by FoghornLeghorn - 10 Jun 2010 at 22:56
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2010 at 03:32
There seems to be a calibration error somewhere on the Ampthill Weather Station, since although it clearly states on the available Temperature Graphs that 32 F is 0 C, the five minute spot temperatures seem to be in error when compared to the graph.

I hope that the MLOC/RFU didn't in any way base its judgement relating to false information supplied to the Appeal on an basic and honest error in weather station calibration, over which Ampthill would seem to have no control.  The calibration error seems to persist to date.

I do hope that the MLOC/RFU Appeals Committee aren't guilty of having made assumptions without real evidence, and giving credibility to heresay, otherwise I can see some interim aggreement for the Leagues being sorted out over the Summer and even games played next season; while Ampthill reserves its position and awaits the matter being given a day in Court somewhere.

What a mess.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2010 at 18:42
MLOC have now made a request for level transfer due to too many teams in 3 North.
They have asked Midlands sides to transfer to London / SE
The clubs offered level transfer are:
Ampthill - they will be transferred due to mileage if no one volunteers
Old Northamptoniana
Broadstreet
Kenilworth
Peterborough

I'm guessing no one will volunteer so Ampthill will be moved to 3 London/SE
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2010 at 19:32
Originally posted by Patch Patch wrote:

MLOC have now made a request for level transfer due to too many teams in 3 North.
They have asked Midlands sides to transfer to London / SE
The clubs offered level transfer are:
Ampthill - they will be transferred due to mileage if no one volunteers
Old Northamptoniana
Broadstreet
Kenilworth
Peterborough
I'm guessing no one will volunteer so Ampthill will be moved to 3 London/SE


I agree with you - especially like the elegance of your version:  'Old Northamptoniana'.

I may be wrong but I think I saw ON's play Ampthill in a cup final at Franklin's Gardens a few years ago.
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