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Topic ClosedAssess/discuss the damage caused by Saracens

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No 7 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Assess/discuss the damage caused by Saracens
    Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 12:07
The Saracens debacle fallout both short-term and long-term cannot be under estimated. The club management and players are all responsible but equally the governing body inaction to effectively nip it in bud needs to be questioned.

Rugby Union pushes 'fair play' as a mantra. How do we ever recover ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 14:16
Professional rugby will not recover it's integrity as long as those responsible for at least six years of sustained cheating are still in position.

When the Cheats are placed back in the Premiership it will be confirmation that the professional game in this country is totally Lovely. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 14:23
100% Ownership and management to blame. To implicate the players is totally unfair in my mind. What player, when offered a lucrative contract, would say "Just a minute, are you sure you can offer me this kind of deal and will it take the club over the salary cap?" 

Edited by Thatbloke - 03 Jan 2021 at 14:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 15:31
What sort of fall-out No7? Not saying there isn’t any, it’s just that you’ve started a post without spelling out what the damage/problem is... Thumbs Up
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No 7 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 17:06
In my opinion Saracens have done irreparable damage to the Sport of Rugby Union. The core values of integrity , respect, honesty and all round fair play, the list is endless and all have been breached . Cheating to win repeatedly and taking the top prize ,year after year. We have lost all credibility and I can not see a way back, especially in the exposure of the depth of `cheating` and the subsequent punishment .

I believe that the players do have a responsibility and saying that any player would not question their `over payment` is like saying would anyone refuse a bribe !. They are party to the cheating and should hold their hands up and be accountable regardless of their standing in the game, all of the England players should be addressed first , start at the top.

Alternatively we gradually descend down the slope into the mire if left unaddressed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 18:07
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

In my opinion Saracens have done irreparable damage to the Sport of Rugby Union. The core values of integrity , respect, honesty and all round fair play, the list is endless and all have been breached . Cheating to win repeatedly and taking the top prize ,year after year. We have lost all credibility and I can not see a way back, especially in the exposure of the depth of `cheating` and the subsequent punishment .

I believe that the players do have a responsibility and saying that any player would not question their `over payment` is like saying would anyone refuse a bribe !. They are party to the cheating and should hold their hands up and be accountable regardless of their standing in the game, all of the England players should be addressed first , start at the top.

Alternatively we gradually descend down the slope into the mire if left unaddressed.


I agree with much of that, players are not that stupid - they will know roughly how much each are getting and continue recruitment of seasoned internationals was a sure indication of wrong-doings.

where they may have been led astray is the setting up of companies partnerships outside of rugby which they were probably told was not a problem.

I think the club administration is to blame, but the players were not whiter than white.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 18:51
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

In my opinion Saracens have done irreparable damage to the Sport of Rugby Union. The core values of integrity , respect, honesty and all round fair play, the list is endless and all have been breached . Cheating to win repeatedly and taking the top prize ,year after year. We have lost all credibility and I can not see a way back, especially in the exposure of the depth of `cheating` and the subsequent punishment .

I believe that the players do have a responsibility and saying that any player would not question their `over payment` is like saying would anyone refuse a bribe !. They are party to the cheating and should hold their hands up and be accountable regardless of their standing in the game, all of the England players should be addressed first , start at the top.

Alternatively we gradually descend down the slope into the mire if left unaddressed.

Curious why you'd returned to this issue now, more than 11 months after the Saracens' final punishment of 105 points (& therefore guaranteed relegation) was finalised? What would you propose as an appropriate punishment?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 00:12
To be fair to Saracens, reality is they are probably not the only ones! Yes they did with the European Cup a few times but they were also against the French clubs which makes what ever Saracens spent look like a bargain. They have contributed massively to the England rugby team as well.

One of the main reasons why Saracens I would suggest fell foul of the salary cap rules is because they invested in their young players to make them international players, which therefore command that salary. I believe they get some for of credits for this but how can it be fair by investing in your players you need to say to them to get lost as you cannot afford them anymore. 

It would make more sense and this would help Chiefs that if the players have been with you say since the age of 21 then they fall outside of the salary cap. A reward for training young players, which would help youth development and ultimately England rugby.

I double anyone outside of rugby really cares about Saracens misdemeanours now and I would say most in rugby don’t really either. They have been punished.

If your employer offered you more money would you look into the legitimacy of the payment? The answer is no, as you wouldn’t be able to and who would question getting more money, you are generally happy that your contribution is being recognised by being rewarded more.

I heard that some of the relegated clubs from the Premiership have effectively been over the Premiership salary cap to secure promotion back.

The only way to make things fair and sustainable is a proper financial fair play system, but that probably won’t happen.

Are Ealing abusing their position of having a wealthy owner by regularly signing the best Championship players off the other clubs to only make them water carriers? They do not need a squad of 45+, so is the true aim to make their rivals deliberately weaker and thus remove competition? Is it fair that the England team have trained with Ealing on occasions? Are they getting special treatment?
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Count Ford View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 01:08
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

To be fair to Saracens, reality is they are probably not the only ones! Yes they did with the European Cup a few times but they were also against the French clubs which makes what ever Saracens spent look like a bargain. They have contributed massively to the England rugby team as well.

One of the main reasons why Saracens I would suggest fell foul of the salary cap rules is because they invested in their young players to make them international players, which therefore command that salary. I believe they get some for of credits for this but how can it be fair by investing in your players you need to say to them to get lost as you cannot afford them anymore. 

It would make more sense and this would help Chiefs that if the players have been with you say since the age of 21 then they fall outside of the salary cap. A reward for training young players, which would help youth development and ultimately England rugby.

I double anyone outside of rugby really cares about Saracens misdemeanours now and I would say most in rugby don’t really either. They have been punished.

If your employer offered you more money would you look into the legitimacy of the payment? The answer is no, as you wouldn’t be able to and who would question getting more money, you are generally happy that your contribution is being recognised by being rewarded more.

I heard that some of the relegated clubs from the Premiership have effectively been over the Premiership salary cap to secure promotion back.

The only way to make things fair and sustainable is a proper financial fair play system, but that probably won’t happen.

Are Ealing abusing their position of having a wealthy owner by regularly signing the best Championship players off the other clubs to only make them water carriers? They do not need a squad of 45+, so is the true aim to make their rivals deliberately weaker and thus remove competition? Is it fair that the England team have trained with Ealing on occasions? Are they getting special treatment?

I'm not sure it's entirely true that Saracens COULDN'T afford to keep hold of the players they developed. They just kept bringing in players from elsewhere that other clubs were having to release to keep within the cap. In essence allowing them to have a much stronger squad than any other English team could afford. 

I do agree it's likely other teams have also bent the rules at various times. Wasnt it all swept under the carpet the first time the issue was raised. I think there were at least 3 clubs involved at that point. 

Also agree that most apart from the more hardcore supporter will have moved on. Bloodgate was a big scandal of its time and while maybe some short term implications...I doubt its had much of a long term effect of perception of rugby.

Head injuries and safety issues...that is the real problem that may well cause some long term damage to the reputation of rugby
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 09:01
I agree with Count Ford, it is how we deal with head injuries that will determine where the game goes. Rugby is a minority sport, one team in Christmas University Challenge didn’t know which country won the 2020 6 Nations so it doesn’t have a high profile. Compare what Saracens did to what many soccer Clubs do in breaking or bending the FFP rules and most people won’t be bothered.

By the way since when were the RFU the Governing Body of the Premiership? Professional Rugby Ltd is the body that makes the calls on the Premiership and the RFU is a minority voice there. It is the Clubs themselves who are to blame for allowing Saracens to get away with it for so long.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 11:32
As The Blues says, (and I've said all along, and there's nothing that will change my mind)... " the only way to make things fair and sustainable is a proper financial fair play system, but that probably won’t happen."

The rest of this thread is just zzzz-inducing and a waste of bytes by covering old, stale ground. But dip yer bread in if it so pleases.
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WEvans View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 14:20
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Professional rugby will not recover it's integrity as long as those responsible for at least six years of sustained cheating are still in position.

When the Cheats are placed back in the Premiership it will be confirmation that the professional game in this country is totally Lovely. 

c-o-r-r-u-p-t becomes lovely?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 14:21
🥱😴 once again we can’t have a discussion on this forum without a bitter blues fan turning into a green eyed monster 🤢😂😂 Happy New year 🎉🍾🕺😎
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 14:40
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

To be fair to Saracens, reality is they are probably not the only ones! Yes they did with the European Cup a few times but they were also against the French clubs which makes what ever Saracens spent look like a bargain. They have contributed massively to the England rugby team as well. For years the Cheats said prove they were breaking the salary cap so you need to prove they weren't the only ones for that to have any credibility. As for winning European cups that was on the back of the cheating allowing them to rotate players. 

One of the main reasons why Saracens I would suggest fell foul of the salary cap rules is because they invested in their young players to make them international players, which therefore command that salary. I believe they get some for of credits for this but how can it be fair by investing in your players you need to say to them to get lost as you cannot afford them anymore. That's the way a salary cap works. Successful teams have to offload players. Look at the way salary caps work in other countries such as rugby league in Australia. Former Cheats DoR (when they weren't cheating) Mark Evans has explained it very well on a number of occasions.

It would make more sense and this would help Chiefs that if the players have been with you say since the age of 21 then they fall outside of the salary cap. A reward for training young players, which would help youth development and ultimately England rugby. It would but it wasn't in place meaning the Cheats cheated.

I double anyone outside of rugby really cares about Saracens misdemeanours now and I would say most in rugby don’t really either. They have been punished. Cheating for at least six years is not a misdemeanour. If you think most rugby folks don't care about their cheating then you are grossly insulting them.  

If your employer offered you more money would you look into the legitimacy of the payment? The answer is no, as you wouldn’t be able to and who would question getting more money, you are generally happy that your contribution is being recognised by being rewarded more. Like most my profession doesn't have a salary cap so this is totally irrelevant however it does have a minimum wage and I wouldn't employ people at less than the minimum wage. Maybe you would. 

I heard that some of the relegated clubs from the Premiership have effectively been over the Premiership salary cap to secure promotion back. As the Cheats said for years and years .... prove it! I also heard Elvis is alive. 

The only way to make things fair and sustainable is a proper financial fair play system, but that probably won’t happen. Agreed.

Are Ealing abusing their position of having a wealthy owner by regularly signing the best Championship players off the other clubs to only make them water carriers? They do not need a squad of 45+, so is the true aim to make their rivals deliberately weaker and thus remove competition? Is it fair that the England team have trained with Ealing on occasions? Are they getting special treatment? Ealing are not cheating. England are not cheating by training with Ealing.

A pretty poor defence of cheating in my opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 17:02
I'm locking this thread.

It's old news. 

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