National League Rugby Discussion Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > Regional Premier Leagues
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Bees Collapse?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Bees Collapse?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Message
Jez View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Location: Solihull
Status: Offline
Points: 446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 10:57
While I am not on the executive committee of either B&S RC Ltd (the 2008 - 19 'club') or B&S RFC Ltd (the 2019 onwards club) my understanding is that it is the case that the Bees have lost the entirety of the 2018/19 playing squad & coaching staff. What the consequence of that for next season will be has yet to be clarified or possibly even decided; as Dagfish says there is an AGM on 4 June to discuss the matter. Nonetheless the bare facts, as currently known, cannot but at least put a question mark over the Bees' participation in the Midlands Premiership next season. 
Regarding French Connection's reference to 'rich men ... us[ing] clubs as a plaything' this most certainly has not been the case with the Bees. The Bees' benefactor has been very much driven by a sense of social obligation/philanthropy and, as a Bees supporter, I am most grateful to him.
 
Lastly Kimbo, you are still not smarting over the Bees' great Championship play-off escape are you? I suspect that, truth be told, as a Coventarian you would be hostile to the Bees whatever the circumstances.     
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Jez - 22 May 2019 at 10:58
Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 509
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:00
Spot on Mr Norling! The game is either open or it's not and that horse has long since bolted. You cannot say on the one hand that it's fine for clubs in the Prem to throw millions at the players but it's scandalous and shouldn't be acceptable for a Level 10 club to decide to pay its players £Xx per match if it so wishes
Every club should be allowed to run itself as its membership so desires. True there will be casualties along the way buy there's no point bleating about it or trying to turn the clock back to a position where players at a certain level must not be paid
Back to Top
carlos fandango View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Online
Points: 684
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlos fandango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:00
Can I just add the point that if someone comes along offering to splash lots of cash around a club, the club can always say no thanks. The Prem clubs are clearly businesses with a sports team attached (rather like the round ball game), but at level 4,5, and below a club should be more community focussed than how far up the pyramid they can go before an individual backer gets bored, runs out of cash, etc. and the whole thing crashes and burns.

It's all well chucking (often well deserved) rocks at the RFU, but we should also be looking a little closer to home also.

 
Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 509
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:15
To me there is a big difference between handing your club over to a wealthy individual who promises this, that and the other, inevitably becoming Chairman in the process "a la footy" and the other model where finance is raised across a wide range of sponsors and local backers who despite their financial support stand somewhat in the shadows and allow the club to be run as it always has been with elected volunteers taking up the major roles within the club
Ok I accept a major sponsor could pull out at any given time but it rarely "kills" the club as a result
Examples of sugar daddies hanging around for long periods are few and far between so as always be careful what you wish for!
Back to Top
One For The Ditch View Drop Down
First XV squad
First XV squad


Joined: 13 Jul 2018
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 51
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote One For The Ditch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:17
Originally posted by Roary Roary wrote:

From what I hear It's a definite possibility, what has not reached this debate is that South Leicester are in exactly the same position. 
If Bees and South Leicester do not turn up for business in Mids Prem next season it will not be for the good of the game, the run away players have to accept some responsibility 


It is fair to assume the Peterborough Lions' coffers and benefactors wallets will have taken a hammering over the last 12 months........
Back to Top
Clive Norling View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 06 Mar 2018
Location: Reading
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:22
Originally posted by carlos fandango carlos fandango wrote:

Can I just add the point that if someone comes along offering to splash lots of cash around a club, the club can always say no thanks. The Prem clubs are clearly businesses

 


A business they might be but not a very good one, judging on the current situation, so why is it ok for Premiership clubs to run at a huge loss but not other clubs at lower levels?

So as an investor in my club (Level 3), you're saying I should go and give my money to a club that I have no allegiance to, so as it can be wasted on sky high wages for a SH test match player but not be given to a local guy i.e. within 20 miles of my club, so as he can have a bit of pocket money for training twice a week and writing off every Saturday for 30 weeks out of 52?

Sorry, I can't see the rational in that arguement ....
Back to Top
carlos fandango View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Online
Points: 684
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlos fandango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:33
I'm not saying that at all but your reaction is a clear example of the lack of imagination used in this country when trying to solve major problems.

 There are plenty of examples where clubs have collapsed when the money tap gets switched off by one individual (East Grinstead springs to mind, but where would Saracens be without their backer).

Give your club money if you so desire, but THE CLUB also has a responsibility.


Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 509
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:53
I think this rather hinges on whether Mr Norling is the "Sugar Daddy"/Chairman of his club OR an investor along with others as in the alternative model I described earlier?
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 6154
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:53
One of the problems is the backer tends to be an ex-player who is a stalwart of the club and would be on the committee anyway - so making them President does not seem a big issue. And it is only after they gain power that the "its my money" attitude starts to appear.
Blood and Sand
Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 509
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:56
Big difference between Chairman & President!
Chairman has control - President Honorary position or it is in most clubs??
Mr Norling is NOT listed at his club in either of these positions

Edited by Thatbloke - 22 May 2019 at 11:57
Back to Top
373 View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 23 Jun 2016
Location: Norweb
Status: Offline
Points: 103
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 12:01
Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Clubs have to start being realistic then. As much as people (rightfully) whinge about the RFU being unable to budget correctly, it seems that clubs don't think that applies to them.

If you play players to get you through the leagues, then you're always going to need a bigger chequebook the year after - and if it does go South, whar players are actually sticking around?

Clubs need to be far more self sustaining - rather than splash the cash on a never was - why not put that money in to developing decent youth players that can take you up the leagues? 


The big difference is that the RFU have PAID staff to manage budgets, the clubs are staffed by VOLUNTEERS, that doesn't mean that budgets should be ignored, BUT to compare the actions of the governing body with it's member clubs is unfair ...

In fact the rank hypocrisy of the RFU in lecturing it's member clubs about fiscal policy is frankly embarrassing and laughable at this current moment in time .....with all their resources and full time staff and Council members, they appear unable to organise an acloholic getting Huckleberryly Pear in a brewery ....

However, the point about paying players is valid but the reality is that ambitious clubs will pay players and if the money runs out, that surely is the concern of the club?

Once the IRB made the decision to make the game "open", this was always going to be one of the knock on effects ..

We spend a huge amount of time developing our younger players but as we go up the leagues, the gap gets bigger to bridge for the younger players ...

To quote my Dad, who started playing rugby in about 1951, "once you introduce money into an amateur sport, the whole ethos changes" and whether we like to admit it or not, it HAS CHANGED IRREVOCABLY ....
I'd agree with a lot of what you are saying. I do find the fact that people use the Volunteer tag to hide behind mismanagement, but that's beside the point.

Definitely agree that it's the concern of the club, but as a few people have said, few if any clubs seem to have any contingency planning for when it all comes crashing down. If clubs want to be ambitious, fantastic! But, they need to have everything in place. What we are seeing is a lot of clubs being 'ambitious' without putting the ground work in to support those.

Like a few have pointed out there's a lot of rent a mob players that just shift from team to team each year. How much vetting is being done on these lads by teams to ensure they are actual fits for what needed - and in many cases are they an actual improvement? The problem is that teams seem to being missing the graft to truly become sustainable, ambitious clubs. There instead seems to be an over reliance on throwing a couple of hundred quid in a lads direction and hoping for the best.

I'm not one of those that thinks paying players is wrong, quite the opposite. What I do think, however, is that clubs need to get a bit smarter and business like.

 
Back to Top
Clive Norling View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 06 Mar 2018
Location: Reading
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 12:11
Originally posted by carlos fandango carlos fandango wrote:

I'm not saying that at all but your reaction is a clear example of the lack of imagination used in this country when trying to solve major problems.

 There are plenty of examples where clubs have collapsed when the money tap gets switched off by one individual (East Grinstead springs to mind, but where would Saracens be without their backer).

Give your club money if you so desire, but THE CLUB also has a responsibility.




Ok, I'll take the bait!

"A major problem" .. well the RFU running out of money is a major problem to EVERY CLUB outside THE PREMIERSHIP but I'm not sure the Premiership clubs owing the banks millions of pounds is, since they all own their own grounds, which if sold, would pay off each individual clubs debt .... a club running out of money at Level 2 and below, not sure that would be my definition of a major problem ..... "lack of imagination", well I'm not sure what you what me to say to that but I would say any "sporting issue" is not a real major problem in the real world ....

I would say the owner of East Grinstead RFC was a megalomaniac, judging by press reports ...

If the club DOES NOT take it's responsibilities seriously, the members have it within their rights to change the executive BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT 99.9% OF THE CLUBS below LEVEL 2 are run very well, with very good intentioned volunteers ....
Back to Top
373 View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 23 Jun 2016
Location: Norweb
Status: Offline
Points: 103
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 12:27
Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 If the club DOES NOT take it's responsibilities seriously, the members have it within their rights to change the executive BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT 99.9% OF THE CLUBS below LEVEL 2 are run very well, with very good intentioned volunteers ....
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

The vast majority of clubs are run so badly it's scary.
Back to Top
JonDee View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 25 May 2007
Location: Nottingam
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 12:38
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 If the club DOES NOT take it's responsibilities seriously, the members have it within their rights to change the executive BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT 99.9% OF THE CLUBS below LEVEL 2 are run very well, with very good intentioned volunteers ....
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

The vast majority of clubs are run so badly it's scary.
 

The vast majority of clubs are run by well intentioned volunteers who may or may not have any business acumen. Many are still run as a rugby club not a business which can lead to all sots of pitfalls if a club rises through the levels
Back to Top
Clive Norling View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 06 Mar 2018
Location: Reading
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 12:46
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

I think this rather hinges on whether Mr Norling is the "Sugar Daddy"/Chairman of his club OR an investor along with others as in the alternative model I described earlier?


For the record .... I joined my club when I was 7 in 1966 (introduced by my Dad), in 1968 as an "Old Boys" club, we very nearly folded but went open and survived, with the introduction of leagues we've bounced around between Level 6 and 9, about 18 years ago, we restructured our executive, with highly motivated and ambitious CEO (whose son has been a 1st XV player and is now a brilliant head coach).

Having enjoyed a career from 1991 - 2015 with the RFU as referee, A/R (hate that term) and a Citing Officer, I returned to my roots to help out.

I am one of a number of people who contribute to the fund to pay our players but being a moderately successful businesman, I maybe contribute more than some others ..... ANY CLUB WHO RELIES ON ONE PERSON, IS ASKING FOR TROUBLE.....e.g.East Grinstead ....

Like a number of clubs at our level, there are between 15 - 30 "sponsors" who contribute a varying amount of money into the pot ....

We DO VET players who want to join us and they are all told, if you're joining for money, we're not the club for you, because we don't have much ....

We now find ourselves at Level 3, but we will NOT BUST the bank to stay up, we either find more sponsors or our budget stays the same and the players are rewarded similarly to last season ... we have had ex Premiership players who we've approached asking £500 - £1000 per game to play for us ..... jog on! However, those players have joined other level 3 clubs, so draw your own conclusions ....

If you've not noticed, I'm hugely passionate about rugby, RFU finances, my club and the friendships made over the last 40 years, rugby when played well is the BEST TEAM sport in the world ....
Back to Top
Clive Norling View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 06 Mar 2018
Location: Reading
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 12:48
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 If the club DOES NOT take it's responsibilities seriously, the members have it within their rights to change the executive BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT 99.9% OF THE CLUBS below LEVEL 2 are run very well, with very good intentioned volunteers ....

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

The vast majority of clubs are run so badly it's scary.


But not anywhere near as scary as the governing body being NEARLY BANKRUPT .....

How do know that the "vast majority" are run badly? By the way, vast majority would be I guess over 70%, so that is about 700 clubs ......

Edited by Clive Norling - 22 May 2019 at 12:52
Back to Top
FEZ ANT PLUCKER View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Location: Reigate
Status: Offline
Points: 816
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEZ ANT PLUCKER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 13:02
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 If the club DOES NOT take it's responsibilities seriously, the members have it within their rights to change the executive BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT 99.9% OF THE CLUBS below LEVEL 2 are run very well, with very good intentioned volunteers ....
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

The vast majority of clubs are run so badly it's scary.
Running a rugby club is running a business whether as a sole trading organisation, or as a Ltd Company, and consequently has responsibilities firstly to HMRC, its creditors and to its members. Fiscal policies, financial scrutiny, checks and balances have to be in place and MANAGED infinitely. Income whether from one single benefactor, or a multitude of small sponsors, together with income derived from membership fees and various fundraising events, must be balanced against total expenditure in order to avoid trading deficits. In simple terms the books must balance with hopefully a trading profit the result. Total expenditure including the payment of players must never exceed total income. Now I am not an accountant but this is purely common sense. My own club is run by its members professionally and ethically and to a high standard IMO, so I am certain we will never be part of the 'Vast Majority' described above. You are what you are and you reap your own rewards or failings.
Fezantplucker
Back to Top
Clive Norling View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 06 Mar 2018
Location: Reading
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 13:06
Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 If the club DOES NOT take it's responsibilities seriously, the members have it within their rights to change the executive BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT 99.9% OF THE CLUBS below LEVEL 2 are run very well, with very good intentioned volunteers ....

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

The vast majority of clubs are run so badly it's scary.

Running a rugby club is running a business whether as a sole trading organisation, or as a Ltd Company, and consequently has responsibilities firstly to HMRC, its creditors and to its members. Fiscal policies, financial scrutiny, checks and balances have to be in place and MANAGED infinitely. Income whether from one single benefactor, or a multitude of small sponsors, together with income derived from membership fees and various fundraising events, must be balanced against total expenditure in order to avoid trading deficits. In simple terms the books must balance with hopefully a trading profit the result. Total expenditure including the payment of players must never exceed total income. Now I am not an accountant but this is purely common sense. My own club is run by its members professionally and ethically and to a high standard IMO, so I am certain we will never be part of the 'Vast Majority' described above. You are what you are and you reap your own rewards or failings.


Back to Top
373 View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 23 Jun 2016
Location: Norweb
Status: Offline
Points: 103
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 13:24
Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 If the club DOES NOT take it's responsibilities seriously, the members have it within their rights to change the executive BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT 99.9% OF THE CLUBS below LEVEL 2 are run very well, with very good intentioned volunteers ....
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

The vast majority of clubs are run so badly it's scary.
Running a rugby club is running a business whether as a sole trading organisation, or as a Ltd Company, and consequently has responsibilities firstly to HMRC, its creditors and to its members. Fiscal policies, financial scrutiny, checks and balances have to be in place and MANAGED infinitely. Income whether from one single benefactor, or a multitude of small sponsors, together with income derived from membership fees and various fundraising events, must be balanced against total expenditure in order to avoid trading deficits. In simple terms the books must balance with hopefully a trading profit the result. Total expenditure including the payment of players must never exceed total income. Now I am not an accountant but this is purely common sense. My own club is run by its members professionally and ethically and to a high standard IMO, so I am certain we will never be part of the 'Vast Majority' described above. You are what you are and you reap your own rewards or failings.
You say common sense, but the reality is that it's far from it. Look how many clubs are empty from Monday to Friday because they aren't using assets to their full extent. As you say, in an ideal world clubs would be run with such level headedness and transparency. The reality of the situation is much different.
Back to Top
FEZ ANT PLUCKER View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Location: Reigate
Status: Offline
Points: 816
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEZ ANT PLUCKER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 13:46
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 If the club DOES NOT take it's responsibilities seriously, the members have it within their rights to change the executive BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT 99.9% OF THE CLUBS below LEVEL 2 are run very well, with very good intentioned volunteers ....
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

The vast majority of clubs are run so badly it's scary.
Running a rugby club is running a business whether as a sole trading organisation, or as a Ltd Company, and consequently has responsibilities firstly to HMRC, its creditors and to its members. Fiscal policies, financial scrutiny, checks and balances have to be in place and MANAGED infinitely. Income whether from one single benefactor, or a multitude of small sponsors, together with income derived from membership fees and various fundraising events, must be balanced against total expenditure in order to avoid trading deficits. In simple terms the books must balance with hopefully a trading profit the result. Total expenditure including the payment of players must never exceed total income. Now I am not an accountant but this is purely common sense. My own club is run by its members professionally and ethically and to a high standard IMO, so I am certain we will never be part of the 'Vast Majority' described above. You are what you are and you reap your own rewards or failings.
You say common sense, but the reality is that it's far from it. Look how many clubs are empty from Monday to Friday because they aren't using assets to their full extent. As you say, in an ideal world clubs would be run with such level headedness and transparency. The reality of the situation is much different.
I agree to an extent that clubhouses and clubs should maximise their earning potential during weekdays as part of the club income. Our club on a Monday to Friday basis is let out to 'Mother and Toddler' groups, a Morris dancing club/group, and a Pilates club, and other fund raising external activities of which I am unsure. In the summer/close season the clubhouse is a venue for Wedding receptions, local business meetings, etc, and we have a dedicated clubhouse marketting team specifically for close season fundraising events. OK we have a building capable of providing the facilities people need, and I understand that not all clubs benefit from the same facilities, but the point is the thinking person has to examine all possible opportunities to raise funds for their respective clubs, particularly at times when rugby is hibernating.
Fezantplucker
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.04
Copyright ©2001-2015 Web Wiz Ltd.