National League Rugby Discussion Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > The Championship
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Championship - structure debate
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Championship - structure debate

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 23>
Author
Message
Donnyknightsfan View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Location: Doncaster
Status: Offline
Points: 1304
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donnyknightsfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Championship - structure debate
    Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 15:15
following on from the thread re Rotherham. I thought it would be good to see what forum posters think the structure of our league should be.

My Solutions:
14 teams in the Championship, 26 rounds. top team promoted, 2nd team playing off with 11th placed AP team.

bring in a "Magic Weekend" similar to League where all 14 teams play in one venue over 2 days and have all the games televised by Sky Sports. Make the games local derbies wherever possible. i.e. Knights v Titans, Hopefully!).

keep relegation from the AP and Championship - failure on the pitch should carry a penalty.

top team in ND1 automatically promoted.

No/reduced parachute payment for relegated AP side, more funding for the 14 teams in the league.

Scrap the B&I or keep it as a knockout cup with AP sides included - bin the Anglo-Welsh.

If all of this were to happen the Championship could finally be an appealing product for sponsors/broadcasters.










Back to Top
Mark W-J View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar

Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2813
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 15:32
If you're going to have a play-off for a potential second promotion place, then you would need to do something similar at the bottom in the interests of fairness at all levels of the hierarchy.  Sadly, the AP clubs will never sign-up to something which increases the risk of their members being relegated.  Similarly, the parachute payment is paid out of the Premier Rugby coffers, so it's up to them - not the Championship clubs - how they want to support their members.
Back to Top
Kimbo View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 31 May 2007
Location: 'incleh
Status: Offline
Points: 3728
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 15:32
The only 'churn' you'll ever get in the Championship is by extra teams being relegated from it. There's absolutely no chance whatsoever of the Prem allowing the possibility of another of 'theirs' to be relegated.
Our City,
Our Club
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 6302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 16:15
There is a lot of churn in the Championship.
From the 14 in National 1 in 2000/1,

Two are in the Premiership.
Two are still in the Championship.
Two are in National 1 
Two are in National 2
One is in Midlands Premier
Two are in North 1 West
One has reformed and is in Lancashire/ Cheshire South 2
One has gone bust and is represented by its amateur side in Herts/Mddx 1 
And the final one was Wakefield

The problem is that of the 12 Zurich  Premiership sides in 2000/1, ten are still there.
Only Rotherham and Bristol have dropped to the Championship and Carnegie had a spell up there.
So since the millennium only 15 clubs have graced the Premiership

I believe that wile Soccer complains of a gulf, 42 teams have played in the 20 team Premier League over that time.

Blood and Sand
Back to Top
Taffy View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Location: Cymru
Status: Offline
Points: 139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Taffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 16:24
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

There is a lot of churn in the Championship.
From the 14 in National 1 in 2000/1,

 
Only Rotherham and Bristol have dropped to the Championship and Carnegie had a spell up there.
So since the millennium only 15 clubs have graced the Premiership



Have I have misunderstood the point? Northampton, Harlequins Worcester and London Irish all dropped to the 2nd tier over the past 16 years
Back to Top
KnightsBoy View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2010
Location: Doncaster
Status: Offline
Points: 1607
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 16:40
I think we could still have a playoff system for 2nd down to 5th final to be played at Twickers as the undercard to the prem final, nice prize of say 100 grand for winners, 50grand for losers and 25 each for the play off losers

Or more if the rfu are feeling generous, I wont hold my breath

Edited by KnightsBoy - 23 Oct 2017 at 16:41
Back to Top
chas View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner

Bedford Blues

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 385
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 16:41
Originally posted by Taffy Taffy wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

There is a lot of churn in the Championship.
From the 14 in National 1 in 2000/1,

 
Only Rotherham and Bristol have dropped to the Championship and Carnegie had a spell up there.
So since the millennium only 15 clubs have graced the Premiership



Have I have misunderstood the point? Northampton, Harlequins Worcester and London Irish all dropped to the 2nd tier over the past 16 years

I think the point is only Rotherham and Bristol have dropped to the Championship, and are currently still there.  As you say, others have dropped but have gone back to the Premiership.
Back to Top
PlangentThrowback View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 07 Feb 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1190
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 16:57
Why are Roth and Bris separate from Leedshire as dropping from the Premiership?  If anything Bristol ought to be differentiated because we were actually in the Prem last season!
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 6302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 17:11
Aside from the current 12, only Bristol, Carnegie, Rotherham and Welsh have made it to level 1 since the millennium.
I said 15 but it is 16 as I forgot to count Welsh.

Yes Harlequins, Irish, Newcastle, Northampton and Worcester have been relegated, but all have since been promoted -mostly at a canter. 

Leeds were in National 1 in 2001 
Bristol and Rotherham were in the Zurich Premiership




Edited by Camquin - 23 Oct 2017 at 17:15
Blood and Sand
Back to Top
Pirate Pig View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Location: Cornwall
Status: Offline
Points: 713
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pirate Pig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 18:25
The only movement on promotion to the premiership is likely to be a play off between the winners of the championship and the bottom side of the premiership in return for more funding from PRL. Anything else I think we can forget as Championship clubs are not in a strong position to make any other demands. The real power is with PRL as they hold the contracts of current and future England players.
Back to Top
The Blues View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 3663
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 21:11
Originally posted by Pirate Pig Pirate Pig wrote:

The only movement on promotion to the premiership is likely to be a play off between the winners of the championship and the bottom side of the premiership in return for more funding from PRL. Anything else I think we can forget as Championship clubs are not in a strong position to make any other demands. The real power is with PRL as they hold the contracts of current and future England players.

The real power is with the RFU, not that they know they have it.

For me
Max 14 teams
1 up 1 down
Playoffs for 2nd and 13th
Cup Competition - Premiership A teams 12, Championship 14, Irish 4 and Welsh 2.  Top 8 go to knockouts.
Back to Top
Kimbo View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 31 May 2007
Location: 'incleh
Status: Offline
Points: 3728
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 23:46
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

There is a lot of churn in the Championship.
From the 14 in National 1 in 2000/1,

Two are in the Premiership.
Two are still in the Championship.
Two are in National 1 
Two are in National 2
One is in Midlands Premier
Two are in North 1 West
One has reformed and is in Lancashire/ Cheshire South 2
One has gone bust and is represented by its amateur side in Herts/Mddx 1 
And the final one was Wakefield

The problem is that of the 12 Zurich  Premiership sides in 2000/1, ten are still there.
Only Rotherham and Bristol have dropped to the Championship and Carnegie had a spell up there.
So since the millennium only 15 clubs have graced the Premiership

I believe that wile Soccer complains of a gulf, 42 teams have played in the 20 team Premier League over that time.



I'm talking about now. Not 2001.
What we have now is stagnation. One team out of each end of the league (and one of those either Bris or Wuss on a fairly regular basis) doesn't exactly inject much variety. It won't change at the top end, ergo it's time there were at least a couple of sides relegated every year to kep things fresh and interesting.
The EFL and FA get a lot of things wrong, but engaging much of each division's clubs in a battle that often lasts to the death is definitely one of the 'right' things.
Our City,
Our Club
Back to Top
Ol' Blue Eyes View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: International
Status: Offline
Points: 396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Blue Eyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 13:02
The Premiership will only negotiate for real change with the RFU and Championship if their financial position weakens any further.

It may happen. Crowds are either stagnating or declining (only 12k at Wasps v Quins at the W/E) and the TV environment is only going to get tougher as younger viewers are almost exclusively using illegal streaming sites, not paid-for TV.

Without subscription fees (I only have BT for rugby and baseball) the viewing figures don't make financial sense for advertisers, so things may quickly go into a tailspin.
Run it!
Back to Top
Ol' Blue Eyes View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: International
Status: Offline
Points: 396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Blue Eyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 13:05
Talking of financial problems, I heard that the SRU is interested in buying a stake in Worcester so they can route Scottish-qualified players through their Academy. More Premiership clubs may have to consider such radical solutions to stay afloat. 

Although I'm pretty sure the RFU has a role in approving take-over/investment decisions(?) Can't see them funding an academy that sends lads north of the border!
Run it!
Back to Top
corporalcarrot View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2013
Location: St Ouen
Status: Offline
Points: 3140
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 13:35
A ten team franchised premiership league would make lots of financial sense at the top table and if you add a couple of well supported quality teams like Wuss & Irish to make a 14 team Championship you would have a cracking second tier. I have regularly supported teams like Coventry, Mose & Albion and hope to see them back in the Championship through normal promotion arrangements but Wuss, Irish, Briz & Wasps would IMO be better for the league if it moves to 14 teams. With that quality of team in the Championship it must surely be easier to strike a good TV deal and improve sponsorship. It would be harsh on Briz or Ealing but if promotion was scrapped this year but two teams come down ............

Edited by corporalcarrot - 24 Oct 2017 at 13:38
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
Back to Top
billesleyexile View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Location: North Oxon
Status: Offline
Points: 828
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 13:59
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

A ten team franchised premiership league would make lots of financial sense at the top table and if you add a couple of well supported quality teams like Wuss & Irish to make a 14 team Championship you would have a cracking second tier. I have regularly supported teams like Coventry, Mose & Albion and hope to see them back in the Championship through normal promotion arrangements but Wuss, Irish, Briz & Wasps would IMO be better for the league if it moves to 14 teams. With that quality of team in the Championship it must surely be easier to strike a good TV deal and improve sponsorship. It would be harsh on Briz or Ealing but if promotion was scrapped this year but two teams come down ............

Just building on this, as ever you've got a ready made example (like with licensing) where RL has tried this. Putting "better" tier 1 clubs into tier 2 would not raise the standard of tier 2, it would kill those tier 1 clubs. 

Which is why it will only happen over the cold, dead bodies of the owners of Wuss, Irish, Bristol and Wasps (how have they been included???).

Nevertheless, and in the spirit of inquiry, can I ask how you would address any consequent widening of the gap between tier 2 and tier 3 if your scheme were to work and raise interest/sponsorship in tier 2? 
And what do tier 3 clubs do in the meantime while they wait for that to become the problem that needs addressing. This feels too much like shifting structural inequality down a division for the convenience of tier 2 clubs.


Edited by billesleyexile - 24 Oct 2017 at 14:06
keep the faith
Back to Top
Loo fighters View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 01 May 2013
Location: Online...
Status: Offline
Points: 1859
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Loo fighters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 15:09
IMHO the biggest problem for the championship is somehow finding a way to bridge the gap to the AP. Champ sits in a nether world, 10 steps behind AP but 5 steps ahead of Nat1 & losing money & appeal all the time. With the increased financial pressure now placed on AP teams with rising wages, would any of the championship team really consider entering the AP (apart from Briz). If not, because of ground restraints & the fear of bankruptcy, what's the point in the championship at all? I honestly believe rugby in this country would be better cutting adrift 12-14 teams, then reshuffling the remainder. Prem rugby & the rfu don't give a toss about most of us, PR doesn't want it's biggest members to drop out & the rfu doesn't want to help anyone climb to the summit unless your rolling in cash, then when sugar daddy leaves or the cash runs out, it's on yer bike mate until the next wanna be sop pitches up.
Family-Rugger-Beer...
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 6302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 15:51
RFU have published the new stategic plan.

I not that it suggest a new Championship agreement will be signed this year.
There will be a new Professional Game Agreement in 2019 and another Championship agreement in 2020.
Blood and Sand
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 2272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 20:14
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:


A ten team franchised premiership league would make lots of financial sense at the top table and if you add a couple of well supported quality teams like Wuss & Irish to make a 14 team Championship you would have a cracking second tier. I have regularly supported teams like Coventry, Mose & Albion and hope to see them back in the Championship through normal promotion arrangements but Wuss, Irish, Briz & Wasps would IMO be better for the league if it moves to 14 teams. With that quality of team in the Championship it must surely be easier to strike a good TV deal and improve sponsorship. It would be harsh on Briz or Ealing but if promotion was scrapped this year but two teams come down ............


Just building on this, as ever you've got a ready made example (like with licensing) where RL has tried this. Putting "better" tier 1 clubs into tier 2 would not raise the standard of tier 2, it would kill those tier 1 clubs. 

Which is why it will only happen over the cold, dead bodies of the owners of Wuss, Irish, Bristol and Wasps (how have they been included???).

Nevertheless, and in the spirit of inquiry, can I ask how you would address any consequent widening of the gap between tier 2 and tier 3 if your scheme were to work and raise interest/sponsorship in tier 2? 
And what do tier 3 clubs do in the meantime while they wait for that to become the problem that needs addressing. This feels too much like shifting structural inequality down a division for the convenience of tier 2 clubs.



I suspect Wasps have been included because of there current league position.

Whilst reducing the number of teams in the Premiership would give the remainder more money, I doubt given the voting requirements that this will happen.

Also 12 teams in the AP less Wuss, Irish and Wasps leaves only 9 teams - where is the other coming from?

Would Premier teams really want 2 less home games each season - I doubt it.

As I have said before, get rid of the AW and B&I cups total waste of time.
RAID ON
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 2272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 20:19
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

RFU have published the new stategic plan.

I not that it suggest a new Championship agreement will be signed this year.
There will be a new Professional Game Agreement in 2019 and another Championship agreement in 2020.


Well that was enlightening - full of PR bulls**t and net promotors score

Still given there other rubbish ideas what do you expect?
RAID ON
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 23>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.04
Copyright ©2001-2015 Web Wiz Ltd.