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Clubs' Finances

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Camquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 13:16
I have met Moseley and Rotherham fans as well as Redruth when they came to Cambridge. Not had the pleasure of entertaiing Preston yet - and if National One gets regionalisd may never do so.

But none of those clubs are Championship clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 14:02
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

I have met Moseley and Rotherham fans as well as Redruth when they came to Cambridge. Not had the pleasure of entertaiing Preston yet - and if National One gets regionalisd may never do so.

But none of those clubs are Championship clubs.
Mose & Roth will always be Championship clubs in my mind and the same goes for Albion. They are cracking well supported clubs and when the timing and location of fixtures facilitate it I try and see their matches when travelling to support the team I follow. I hope to do the same at Yorkies if rugby ever starts up again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 17:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 17:29
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Throwing this into mix re coverage.



Well, if minority sports can get that sort of coverage there is no reason Championship rugby shouldn't get a better deal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 17:31
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Why are there fewer away fans in Union.
What steps are the clubs taking, jointly and severally, to increase the number of their fans following them to away games?



Rugby League is based on 125 years of local rivalry, where past history plays a prominent part in the next fixture. It is a selling point the game constantly fails to grasp when it goes on its regular expansion trips.  With rare exceptions most teams are within a max 90 minutes journey of each other encouraging fans to travel, and not wasting 'half a weekend' to do so.

That same shared rivalry, history and community once was the bedrock of Welsh rugby, and Scottish Borders Rugby.  

(Internationally Rugby League in Sydney and Brisbane, and Aussie Rules in Melbourne shared many of these traits, but both have managed to expand better than the Rugby League in England, but travelling to away games (outside of the city) is a rarity.)

English rugby union with rare exceptions has none of these traits at club level. For many years it was a game for the player not the supporter and its structure didn't merit travelling away support outside of the hardcore/sad geeks. You knew you could stay at your home ground and watch your seconds and still enjoy a few drinks in the clubhouse.

Where local rivalry* still exists crowds, both home and travelling are larger than many 'newer' fixtures which haven't created a 'grudge' feeling.

* Bath v Bristol, Leicester v Northampton, London Scottish v Richmond, etc. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 17:33
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Throwing this into mix re coverage.



Well, if minority sports can get that sort of coverage there is no reason Championship rugby shouldn't get a better deal.

But its not television coverage. 

I don't think anyone would argue live streaming via a website or local newspaper isn't an option but it's not television coverage which is the discussion point in this thread. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isithalftimeyet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 18:23
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Throwing this into mix re coverage.



Well, if minority sports can get that sort of coverage there is no reason Championship rugby shouldn't get a better deal.

But its not television coverage. 

I don't think anyone would argue live streaming via a website or local newspaper isn't an option but it's not television coverage which is the discussion point in this thread. 

But is it about TV these days?  Everything the younger generation watch is through online channels whether it is Youtube, Netflix or whatever.  The subscriber model is able to target specific areas of interest and advertisers will target more focussed audiences.  A subscriber model with targeted advertising is where many niche sports are going and it's not just about being UK based it could be easily be Global.

Play Sports Network through GCN (Global Cycling Network) for example have just launched their 'Race Pass' which allows access to a whole host of Cycling events not previously accessible for an annual cost of GBP39.00 which gets you unlimited viewing of events.  That will be supplemented by advertising revenue and will cover the costs of either buying existing events rights for those already televised or funding the costs of televising those events not currently covered.  This will be available via Apple TV in due course so you will watch it in the same way as TV today just not through proprietary channels (BBC, Sky or BT).






Edited by Isithalftimeyet - 21 Jul 2020 at 18:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 19:10
Originally posted by Isithalftimeyet Isithalftimeyet wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Throwing this into mix re coverage.



Well, if minority sports can get that sort of coverage there is no reason Championship rugby shouldn't get a better deal.


But its not television coverage. 

I don't think anyone would argue live streaming via a website or local newspaper isn't an option but it's not television coverage which is the discussion point in this thread. 


But is it about TV these days?  Everything the younger generation watch is through online channels whether it is Youtube, Netflix or whatever.  The subscriber model is able to target specific areas of interest and advertisers will target more focussed audiences.  A subscriber model with targeted advertising is where many niche sports are going and it's not just about being UK based it could be easily be Global.

Play Sports Network through GCN (Global Cycling Network) for example have just launched their 'Race Pass' which allows access to a whole host of Cycling events not previously accessible for an annual cost of GBP39.00 which gets you unlimited viewing of events.  That will be supplemented by advertising revenue and will cover the costs of either buying existing events rights for those already televised or funding the costs of televising those events not currently covered.  This will be available via Apple TV in due course so you will watch it in the same way as TV today just not through proprietary channels (BBC, Sky or BT).







The thread is entitled Clubs Finances

I don't think any club would argue against their games being shown on whatever channel or medium that's available as long as they get some income. TV as we used to know it is history, millions of people now watch sport on their smart phones ( have loved some of the rugby on Facebook on my mobile ). We have to adapt let the RFU do what they do best i.e lose money and develop Twickers again , we need attract new younger audiences by using technology and we have a lot of them through mini and juniors its just about hanging onto them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 19:18





Yes the thread is entitled club finances and it feels like the biggest income would be through a TV deal. We seem to have gone from wanting FTA TV coverage to now wanting any coverage by any means necessarily. A quick descent on a slippery slope. 

I know some clubs broadcast games via the Web, are they profitable or loss leaders to attract new fans or advertisers. If the latter how long can clubs already under heavy financial pressure keep propping up the losses? 

If the former why isn't everyone doing it? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 20:25
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:






Yes the thread is entitled club finances and it feels like the biggest income would be through a TV deal. We seem to have gone from wanting FTA TV coverage to now wanting any coverage by any means necessarily. A quick descent on a slippery slope. 

I know some clubs broadcast games via the Web, are they profitable or loss leaders to attract new fans or advertisers. If the latter how long can clubs already under heavy financial pressure keep propping up the losses? 

If the former why isn't everyone doing it? 





I would have thought the options in order of preference are:-

1) FTA coverage on the likes of ITV
2) coverage on a PayTV channel
3) coverage on a streaming basis

The idea is to get coverage out there and attract viewers who, when they see the quality of the product, might just become supporters of the future.

Edited by Raider999 - 21 Jul 2020 at 20:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopping Mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 22:47
Yes it’s been so successful to date for the Championship, those crowds have....remained in the hundreds for most clubs.

Is it desperation or has the Championship befuddled those who’ve watched/played in it to think it is really something that has a huge untapped audience out there that has been desperate to find a way to watch it?

Seeing crowds of four figures is still the exception for many and it gets even more stark in National One.

We are talking two of the top three leagues in the country that are drawing a cumulative average crowd most weekends of the season of less than 20,000 (being generous).The worst supported club in level 4 or 5 in the football pyramid would have crowds that would be significantly more than the majority of clubs in current level 2/3 can command.

So it’s time to drop the delusions of grandeur. As a commercial entity the current structure has failed and the ability of the union to make up the continual shortfall has run out. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2020 at 23:21
There certainly are not hordes of people desperate to watch Championship rugby.
There may be ways to increase the audience, but they involve a lot of hard work, and there are no fairy god mother who will take this on. Each and ever club needs to do this for themselves.

The idea that the public know who Ampthill and Doncaster are and have an untapped desire to come watch is laughable. 
Club rugby's profile is low and for the last 20 years the focus has been restricted to the Premiership.

The way to increase crowds is to get your current fans to bring a friend. And to get your DoR interviewed in the local paper or on local radio. 

I would love it if the next contract to broadcast International rugby had a requirement to read the classified rugby scores. But that would mean less gin. 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 08:17
The fundamental issue is that rugby has historically been a sport to be played rather than watched, whereas soccer is one that is watched. The Premiership has driven up the number of watchers but I’ve often wondered if that was at the expense of playing numbers at grassroots clubs.

Building crowds at Championship and NCA level is hard work and relies on constant local promotion. Winning also helps, Esher got bigger gates at the top of National 1 than we did in the Championship, largely down to results. 

We all have to manage our Clubs within their own constraints. We shouldn’t expect to rely on handouts from the RFU to pay players. Those players have to be paid from what we can generate within our club structures, through sponsorship and donations, clubhouse lettings and gate takings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 08:30
So speaketh the supporters of lower tier clubs - however if we don't profile the game somehow those clubs will also lose out as the idea is to try and generate interest and then people might want to play the game, seek out their local club and join. 

So instead of all the negative tilts at the attempts to date come up with some constructive suggestions. It is our sport that is likely to suffer irrespective of the level that your team is playing in currently.

Who says it has to be live television, we could go with a highlights programme - that way the audience gets all the tasty exciting bits which may just lure further attention and audiences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 09:15
Wow cpk, nice piece of snobbery there, "...supporters of lower tier clubs..." or do you mean the other 99.9% of Clubs in England?

I love your "Field of Dreams" approach. If you build it they will come......... no they won't!

You (Championship Clubs) haven't got a product anyone wants and that's why you have no TV companies wanting to commit resources to it. Furthermore how would you're Highlights programme work? Get Speccies to send clips in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 09:43
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Wow cpk, nice piece of snobbery there, "...supporters of lower tier clubs..." or do you mean the other 99.9% of Clubs in England?

I love your "Field of Dreams" approach. If you build it they will come......... no they won't!

You (Championship Clubs) haven't got a product anyone wants and that's why you have no TV companies wanting to commit resources to it. Furthermore how would you're Highlights programme work? Get Speccies to send clips in?

The Pirates have been trying to build a stadium for ten years. We tried a season in the Truro area in a temporary ground and the crowds were much bigger (usually over two thousand) and for one game it was sold out (5,000). The club are very confident that crowds will be at least at that level, probably higher, when we get the stadium built. The RFU have done nothing to market the Championship and seem to see it as is simply a way to feed Prem clubs and nothing more. I take it you don't support a championship club, and your post is actually inverted snobbery. I support, as do many, my local club as well as The Pirates and there is no conflict. Your defeatist attitude is what is holding the game back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 10:03
Stalwart, I'm a supporter of the game. Defeatist or Realist? Premiership ringfencing will be announced for the end of the 20/21 Season. Where does that leave the Clubs in the Championship. The CEO of the RFU Mr. Sweeney said it himself, the Championship is more aligned to the "community game" than the Professional game. There is no market for promoting/televising semi-pro/amateur sport. clubs need to wake-up to the fact that the Holy Grail of Premiership Rugby isn't going to happen for them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 10:14
Originally posted by Hopping Mad Hopping Mad wrote:

Yes it’s been so successful to date for the Championship, those crowds have....remained in the hundreds for most clubs.

Is it desperation or has the Championship befuddled those who’ve watched/played in it to think it is really something that has a huge untapped audience out there that has been desperate to find a way to watch it?

Seeing crowds of four figures is still the exception for many and it gets even more stark in National One.

We are talking two of the top three leagues in the country that are drawing a cumulative average crowd most weekends of the season of less than 20,000 (being generous).The worst supported club in level 4 or 5 in the football pyramid would have crowds that would be significantly more than the majority of clubs in current level 2/3 can command.

So it’s time to drop the delusions of grandeur. As a commercial entity the current structure has failed and the ability of the union to make up the continual shortfall has run out. 


Can understand your point however the average home attendance for last year was 1614

https://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=613

There were some games in the 600s and mainly when Yorkshire came to play as they sadly lost most of their travelling support due to their problems
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 10:49
Originally posted by Stalwart Your defeatist attitude is what is holding the game back.<br>[/QUOTE Stalwart Your defeatist attitude is what is holding the game back.
[/QUOTE wrote:



Reality is what is holding the game back. It's not defe

Reality is what is holding the game back. It's not defeatism - we're in a reset year for the whole sport, if not sport as a whole, and frankly, as one of the younger poster on here (still in my 30s) I'm not interested in the ambitions of 2-3 clubs to join the top 12 when there's the whole of the rest of the sport to worry about.

Basic maths says that a 12 club premiership and a 12 club championship gives you 12 games. 16 teams at NL1 gives you 8. So the top three divisions account for a whole 20 matches every week. Except obviously the premiership and championship don't have league fixtures every week. 

The premiership is off and away in the land of milk and honey (although pulling its horns in and cutting player salaries at a rate of knots). 

Anything below the premiership, and certainly arguments between fans of level 2 and level 3 clubs is, literally bald men fighting over combs.

Add into that the structurally bizarre position rugby has got itself into where, as a supporter of a team that has gone down, I was astonished to discover that the drop that I'd feared for so long was actually a move to a more fun matchday experience (no mickey mouse cups, home and away games every Saturday at 2 or 3pm for a start).

Rugby doesn't know what it wants to do with the Championship, but, to the astonishment of my own ears, I did find myself in agreement with Mr Sweeney that when it comes down to it the Championship has more in common with the "community game" (i.e. as far as Twickenham is concerned, *every* game outside the top twelve fixtures that happens in the entire country) than it does with the top six fixtures. That's a whole sport problem, not a level 2 problem. There are ambitious clubs in the championship (as there are at every level) but there're also sides which are basically NCA set-ups separated from the NCA clubs pretty much by central funding and not a lot else. For a long time, we were probably one of them... (the sad thing for Mose is that after years of playing with a distinct lack of facilities we opened them as we finally went down...).

I agree with some of the posters above, without being defeatist, that the music has basically stopped now and we are where we are. I'm sure clubs will make it into the Premiership in the future, but they'll have to get there through a Championship which is going to be a defunded league which looks very little different to National 1 (as in level 3, not the old level 2), and a million miles off professional sport.

I shall now put down my crystal ball and have a stiff drink.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 11:42
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Wow cpk, nice piece of snobbery there, "...supporters of lower tier clubs..." or do you mean the other 99.9% of Clubs in England?

I love your "Field of Dreams" approach. If you build it they will come......... no they won't!

You (Championship Clubs) haven't got a product anyone wants and that's why you have no TV companies wanting to commit resources to it. Furthermore how would you're Highlights programme work? Get Speccies to send clips in?

For the unintended snobbery, I apologise, it was not the intent, the message was if something is not done, supported, whatever you will - the reality is it just won't be the demise of the Championship Clubs but rugby in general. As it is I fear you can all recognise that there is a difficulty in recruiting into this wonderful sport and if there isn't the exposure to new blood we are all in it up to our necks (not just the 12 but the thousands of players / teams and clubs)

Re: Highlights programme initially if recordings are centrally pooled and edited for a highlight programme featuring all the matches in the league it may start something. Perhaps it is field of dreams, but if we don't try we may as well pack in now all of us not just the 12.
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