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Disciplinary Matters

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Brizzer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 13:36
Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:


I have never understood why a penalty try is not sufficient. The game is about scoring in an even contest so why make a contest uneven for 10 mins after the reward has been given ?

I would go further than that. I have seen refs signal advantage near the goal line, only to run under the posts after 2 or 3 passages of play by way of 'no advantage coming' etc.
Why wait? if a player stops a clear scoring opportunity by foul play, then they should just go straight under the posts. In fact, I have seen play continue and the team score in the corner, but miss the conversion. If they had have dropped the ball then they would have automatically received all 7 points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 13:49
Players like to score tries.
Some players are competitive as to the number they score compared to other members of the team.
Therefore referees like to let a player socre rather than deny them by awarding the penalty try.

You can argue that if the try is scored, then the foul play did not prevent the try from being scored - so it does not meet the requirements of a Penalty Try. Though there is the seconday claue about scored in a less advantageous position - whih is about the difficulty of the conversion.

Aside from the fact the conversion might be missed, referees often do not feel they can show a player a yellow if the try is scored.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 14:01
But they can show yellows and not give the try.If a try is scored anyway wider it doesn't mean the the foul play didn't prevent a try-it just means there was another opportunity which was taken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 14:57
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

But they can show yellows and not give the try.If a try is scored anyway wider it doesn't mean the the foul play didn't prevent a try-it just means there was another opportunity which was taken.
But they are not getting advantage from the offence, they are being disadvantaged.
For instance, a player would have scored under the posts but a player tackles him whilst on the floor. Ref signals penalty coming. The play continues and a try is scored close to the 15mtr line, but as they were playing into the wind the kick is missed.
The player/team who was illegally tackled is now disadvantaged by 2 points. How can that be right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 15:00
Originally posted by Brizzer Brizzer wrote:

Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

But they can show yellows and not give the try.If a try is scored anyway wider it doesn't mean the the foul play didn't prevent a try-it just means there was another opportunity which was taken.
But they are not getting advantage from the offence, they are being disadvantaged.
For instance, a player would have scored under the posts but a player tackles him whilst on the floor. Ref signals penalty coming. The play continues and a try is scored close to the 15mtr line, but as they were playing into the wind the kick is missed.
The player/team who was illegally tackled is now disadvantaged by 2 points. How can that be right?

Sorry, just read your post again Pappashanga, are you saying that the yellow is justified because the attacking team may have a less advantageous position or less time on the clock or both?
If so, then double jeopardy with a PT and YC is unfair?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 15:25
So, logivally if a team scores a try while the referee is signalling a penalty advantage in their favour, should the referee award the 7 points immeidiately as a panelty try?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 15:39
I was commenting on what some referees do. If there was an offence which deserved a yellow but it didn't necessarily prevent a try, then there's a yellow but no try. It's a very fine judgment and might well be wrong though.
It is up to individual judgment and perhaps depends on how far the attacking team was from the try line- i.e. the further from the try line the more difficult to judge. Players do also drop the ball sometimes when a score is 'inevitable', so you can never be sure.
The more I explore this the less certain I become.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 16:04
You can only go on what would probably have happened. There are always ridiculous things that happen once in a blue moon, so to deny a try after an offence because you once saw a dog run on and tackle the  winger who was about to score is clearly wrong.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 16:09
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

I was commenting on what some referees do. If there was an offence which deserved a yellow but it didn't necessarily prevent a try, then there's a yellow but no try. It's a very fine judgment and might well be wrong though.
It is up to individual judgment and perhaps depends on how far the attacking team was from the try line- i.e. the further from the try line the more difficult to judge. Players do also drop the ball sometimes when a score is 'inevitable', so you can never be sure.
The more I explore this the less certain I become.

I agree. You also have to add in the patience factor from Sir. I remember one of the Plymouth players getting a yellow following a PT. The Albion DOR protested double jeopardy after the game until the ref pointed out that there had been about 5 pens given in the 22 within the few minutes leading to the score, plus during the final move he played about 3 separate advantages before finally going under the posts. I think that the YC was given for sheer stupidity in the end.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 19:44
I do think that a few games I have seen on TV mostly and perhaps one instant against the Blues that sometimes offending teams get away with it.  I probably haven't explained this well and you kind of need to see the match to probably understand.

I have seen a team get given a couple of yellow cards close to the try line in close proximity as they committed multiple penalty offences.  Despite the attacking team being camped on the offending teams try line for a number of minutes the penalties aren't really those that could make it into a penalty try situation - no realistic chance of scoring.  After a period of time the attacking team knock on or something, which has made me feel the offending team had got out of jail and perhaps some kind of points penalty would've been appropriate on a 2nd yellow card offence say 2 or 3 points.

You could argue well if the attacking team cannot score against 13 well they don't deserve it but if the ball is being slowed down all the time to let themselves organise their defence.

However this often happens at the end of the game and sometimes giving up a player for 2 or 3 mins before the 80 mins is up can be a better option than the try.

One game that sticks in the memory involved Exeter this season and they won the game I think by 4 points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 20:09

It was cold in St Ouens today and in retirement I wimped out of my allocated task of pruning vines  and walking spaniels &  so read and watched this again. Sad I know but the other options were less than enlightening. My only conclusion is that it's a really tough job refereeing at this level. and  midgets  props are difficult to tackle. The Jersey tight head is certainly not a dirty player and I'm certain the game is not enhanced by his 4 week ban.

Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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