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Topic ClosedDoes the wholesale use of DR players damage club r

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Poll Question: Does the wholesale use of DR players damage club rugby
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Fake_Shemp View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 20:13
Is Wikipedia correct?

"Formed by a team of sportsmen drawn mainly from Sale Cricket Club, Sale Football Club was founded in 1861 and is the fifth oldest surviving rugby club and the most prominent in the history of the North West. In the early days of the club, rules were usually deemed unnecessary and those that were enforced were often made up on the spot. As the game began to evolve, however, the need for specified regulations became apparent and in 1865 the Minute Book was created stipulating the ten rules to be followed by all players. This is now the world’s oldest existing rugby rule book and a much treasured possession. Games were originally played on either a rented portion of Sale Cricket Club or on fields owned by local farmers. In 1905, the club bought a field at the end of Heywood Road."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 20:51
Sid James, in your revolution to create equality are you also going to impose salary caps at NL1 and for that matter NL2N? Are you also going to ban Sugar Daddies? If so how do you plan to level the playing field?

Since the days of boot money and brown envelopes changing hands long before the leagues started, rugby union has had its inequalities and IMHO always will.

Good luck to HIs as you continue your struggle, I doubt if the playing field will be any more level in 2018 - 2019 whether you are playing in NL1 or NL2N.

As for LS, I will continue to support them whatever league we are in and continue to accept the challenges of an ever changing squad due to students graduating and leaving the club, some of whom have developed into players good enough to be offered professional contracts in higher leagues.

I agree totally with the poster who said that DRs help develop international players for all home nations. Also the Premiership and the Championship. On that basis do you not recognise their benefit to RU in England and the other home nations?

I somehow feel if Eddie Jones were to spout out that DRs were an essential part of developing elite England players in his quest for world domination nobody on this forum would give a pile of manure about DRs. However, the inequalities caused by DRs would still continue.

Regarding DRs, like DMP I think you might also find that at least some DRs at Loughborough Students went to Tigers. It is / was not one way traffic in the opposite direction that some believe. Are you going to deny these players the opportunity of playing at a higher level and bringing that knowledge / experience back to the club when they play / train with LS to develop other players in the squad?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 21:48
Originally posted by PurpleHaze PurpleHaze wrote:

Sid James, in your revolution to create equality are you also going to impose salary caps at NL1 and for that matter NL2N? Are you also going to ban Sugar Daddies? If so how do you plan to level the playing field?

Good luck to HIs as you continue your struggle, I doubt if the playing field will be any more level in 2018 - 2019 whether you are playing in NL1 or NL2N.

I agree totally with the poster who said that DRs help develop international players for all home nations. Also the Premiership and the Championship. On that basis do you not recognise their benefit to RU in England and the other home nations?


I have no problem with massive differences in resources between clubs, the hugely better financed clubs will almost certainly progress up the leagues and all sides will eventually find their own level.

However what I don't want is the wholesale use of DRs where one club is in reality another club. If anyone can explain to me how using up to 10 players from another club on some temporary merry go round is appropriate/fair/in keeping with the principle of club rugby I will be astounded.

I also do not care if the wholesale use of DRs is good for the elite international sides...........it will completely f**k up the club game in the process.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 22:15
Big Eddie, if you would be kind enough to highlight the games where you believe any side has fielded 10 DR players it would be fantastic to know which one.
Interestingly I have heard OA’s had 4 in the starting XV against Caldy and 0 yesterday at OE’s.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 22:16
Originally posted by Big Bold and Brassy Eddie Big Bold and Brassy Eddie wrote:

I also do not care if the wholesale use of DRs is good for the elite international sides...........it will completely f**k up the club game in the process.


"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 22:25
Originally posted by Supporter123 Supporter123 wrote:

Big Eddie, if you would be kind enough to highlight the games where you believe any side has fielded 10 DR players it would be fantastic to know which one.
Interestingly I have heard OA’s had 4 in the starting XV against Caldy and 0 yesterday at OE’s.

Interestingly, I was told by a senior OA's member that OA's had 9 in their squad , against Caldy 
There must have been 5 on the bench! LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 22:36
Originally posted by Supporter123 Supporter123 wrote:

Big Eddie, if you would be kind enough to highlight the games where you believe any side has fielded 10 DR players it would be fantastic to know which one.
Interestingly I have heard OA’s had 4 in the starting XV against Caldy and 0 yesterday at OE’s.

I don't know if this has happened this season, but I do know that the rules that Nigel Melville and the RFU put in place for this season allow up to 10 DRs to be used by a club.

My brief review of OA's squad for the Caldy game showed at least 7 Saracens players in the match day squad against Caldy. Caldy people like Seagoon who went to the game were told 9 by OAs. The Caldy Director of Rugby has gone into press quoting 9.

Sorry to dissappoint you Supporter 123......I haven't yet found the 10th

For me it is immaterial if 3,6 or 10 DR players are used. That the RFU has legitamized and promoted the use of 10 is my principal concern.

It will kill the club game as we know it. My honestly held view, and nothing to do with Caldy.


Edited by Big Eddie - 15 Apr 2018 at 22:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 22:51
As I have previously stated my interest is for the club game at level 3 and below. I am not interetsed in how the DR policy possibly benefits the Elite game. However all the proponents of the use of DRs cite player development as the benefit that this DR policy enables. Consider the following:

1. Why doesn't the elite level just run a proper A team league and finance it properly? The Academies attached to the Premiership clubs are provided with many £000's every year by the RFU to run these Academies surely they cannot use the lack of finance as an excuse...........or have they spent this money on other things and would they just like to annex level 3 clubs by stealth and get their player development for free?

2. Greg Dyke proposed a similar bonkers idea for the Football League clubs to include 2nd teams from Premiership clubs. Not surprisingly the idea was not considered to be a good idea by the Football League

3. Does this wholesale DR policy benefit loyal players who have stuck with a club but then get usurped by DRs parachuted in?

4. What club supporters  want to watch a group of players who have no real connection with their club?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 22:52
For me personally as an interested onlooker with no particular affinity to any particular club in the SE but someone who enjoys watching a good standard of rugby in the London area I often find that the truth is manipulated slightly and often that rumour is mistaken for fact by a few. I am familiar with some of the younger faces in Saracens and do know that some of them made their debut in Nat 1 rugby in the 1st and 2nd game of the season for OA’s.
Perhaps it has taken time for these younger players to gel to full grown adult rugby but certainly appears from looking on from the outside that to be tarred with the brush that they have been drafted in to avoid relegation is somewhat untrue. I imagine they have learnt a great deal from some of the losses suffered along the way as well.
As I say not too interested in defending a particular corner but do appreciate from my time viewing club rugby that every club has often a reason for finding a model that suits them. I guess we will all agree to disagree on which is fairest and this is what forumns such as this are designed for.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 00:52
Sale Amateurs?

Edited by Monkey Boy - 16 Apr 2018 at 00:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 07:38
BE, I am 100% appreciative and admiration of what teams like Caldy achieve. I also really enjoyed my visit from Leicestershire up there for the Fylde game last September. Keep up the great work flying the flag of amateur, community based rugby union. I would have been delighted if professionalism had not entered the sport, however it did and we either live with it or walk away.

Ironically, given the DR debate, I cancelled my membership at Leicester Tigers when the game went professional and just enjoyed watching rugby at Level 3 and below around Nottinghamshire, Derby and Leicestershire. I still support all Leicestershire teams with the exception of Tigers.

I am a little bit surprised about your apparent support or at least neutrality on the subject of paying for success in rugby. For some it worked, for others it was a complete disaster and some famous clubs from amateur days disappeared.

“Paying for success” is like playing snakes and ladders, where very few reach the money chest at the top of the tree.

Didn’t clubs like London Welsh, Orrell, Wakefield and West Hartlepool “fail” because they tried chasing for rugby Shangri-La (more like “La la land”) and went bust? Others like Nottingham and London Scottish have also come close to disappearing.

I for one do not want to see ANY amateur rugby clubs fail because they chased success by waving a big fat cheque book. Enough is enough.

Will the DR experiment result in failure of clubs like LS and OAs even if they get relegated? I can’t speak for OAs but LS will not fail as a club if they are relegated. The club will go on and I am sure will continue to run 5 Men’s and 4 Women’s teams, like many other amateur clubs strive to do across the country.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 08:03
Purplehaze,

I believe in free market principles so if clubs have moeny and since the game is no longer strictly amateur I support the idea that a club can theoretically go from level 9 to level 1. It is a tough thing for a club to do but why can they not aspire to it?

I have no truck with the RFU imposing salary caps etc, these artificial barriers will never affect Caldy who operate way below the level they bite at but what right does the RFU have to say to a club at Levels 3-9 you cannot pay players when the RFU pour all the money they do into the Premiership?

The RFU does not want to waste its financial resources on levels 2-9 because that pulls money away from what the RFU is all about, the elite game and their own salaries.

The policy that the RFU promoted for this season whereby clubs can utilise up to 10 Dual Registered Players has skewed the league and was not introduced by the RFU for the good of level 3 clubs it was introduced by the RFU because they believed it would assist the elite game.

It has caused a situation where two elite clubs in Leicester Tigers and Saracens are actively skewing the reults at level 3. This cannot be good for a fair competition at level 3...........but clearly the RFU isn't concerned about that.


Edited by Big Eddie - 16 Apr 2018 at 08:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 08:29
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

I have no truck with the RFU imposing salary caps etc, these artificial barriers will never affect Caldy who operate way below the level they bite at but what right does the RFU have to say to a club at Levels 3-9 you cannot pay players when the RFU pour all the money they do into the Premiership?


The salary caps where they exist are designed really to stop runaway funding which no-one else can match.  Unless strictly enforced in the way American Professional sports do, then they're meaningless.  We all know stories of players who don't get paid much by a club, but are employed by a sponsor in a ghost job. If you have the money and a lack of financial ethics, then you will always see people being creative with payment systems.

The real key is to ensure that clubs are sustainable, not necessarily what level they play at.  Those who have a sugar daddy arrangement are always in a precarious situation, great while it lasts but what happens when the sugar daddy gets bored or broke?  This means revenue streams have to be not just gate receipts (and lets be honest no one is bringing 2000 paying supporters in week after week to make it sustainable), it can't just be about sponsors if you want to play at a fully professional level as that's also reliant on a season by season goodwill process. There needs to be something else, a venue for hire which most have, but not all, a huge array of volunteers willing to put in time to make things work etc etc.
DR players if they exist, need to fit into this process, having people parachute in and out at the expense of regular players is not sustainable.  DR players must fit into and train with the team, they need to buy into the philosophy of the team and the team spirit.  Arron Reed has been at our last 3 home games supporting the team while he's been injured. In our Senior Colts Cheshire semi-final yesterday at Heywood Road against Caldy, sat in the stands was Nic Dolly, one of our DR players.  He wanted to come in and watch the new boys coming through on his day off. That is the club spirit we are trying to build and our DR players have bought into that.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 08:36
Jimbojetset,

Does the RFU concern itself with the vast losses being incurred in the Premiership where the survival of these teams is dependent on indulgent owners? Nigel Wray, Simon Orange etc

and would you be happy if Sale Sharks provide Sale FC with up to 10 dual registered players next season who take the place of Sale FC players ?


Edited by Big Eddie - 16 Apr 2018 at 08:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 08:51
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Jimbojetset,

Does the RFU concern itself with the vast losses being incurred in the Premiership where the survival of these teams is dependent on indulgent owners? Nigel Wray, Simon Orange etc

Don't really care about the premiership. Simon Orange is trying to make Sale Sharks sustainable but, personally I don't think they can be given the lack of bums on seats and the geographical pull of the South of England for rugby professionally.

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

and would you be happy if Sale Sharks provide Sale FC with up to 10 dual registered players next season who take the place of Sale FC players ?

You keep saying 10 players as if Sale Sharks have ten spare players.  We have 5 or 6 DR players and quite frankly we've rarely had more than 2 playing in any one game after September, so I don't see a time when we will ever field 10 DR players as Sharks just don't have the squad size for them to be available.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 12:02
There is a lot of misinformation being banded about here.

1. Clubs don't play 10 DRs in a match.
2. DR are available a maximum of 50% of the season, probably less.
3. At Nat 1 level, they are probably 18/19, not the 22/23 year olds.
4. If you look at LS results and DRs, they actually have about the same (slightly worse with more than 2 DR in the starting lineup).  This is due to the right balls up of coaching in the first 1/3 of the season more than anything. So even with DRs you can lose (shock horror).
5. Clubs that are 'safe' and won't be promoted or relegated, switch off and lose matches that perhaps their form say's they shouldn't and the sides struggling try harder, shock horror.  Nothing unusual about that.
6. The poll is stupid and pointless, what does it actually resolve?
7. How is it a level playing field (assuming no DRs), when some clubs just bring in old Premiership players on more salary than the entire playing budget of some sides? It was never a level playing field and strangely the clubs with the biggest budgets are at the top.  Who would have thought that would happen Wink



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 12:53
Originally posted by Pet Monkey Pet Monkey wrote:

There is a lot of misinformation being banded about here.

1. Clubs don't play 10 DRs in a match.
2. DR are available a maximum of 50% of the season, probably less.
3. At Nat 1 level, they are probably 18/19, not the 22/23 year olds.
4. If you look at LS results and DRs, they actually have about the same (slightly worse with more than 2 DR in the starting lineup).  This is due to the right balls up of coaching in the first 1/3 of the season more than anything. So even with DRs you can lose (shock horror).
5. Clubs that are 'safe' and won't be promoted or relegated, switch off and lose matches that perhaps their form say's they shouldn't and the sides struggling try harder, shock horror.  Nothing unusual about that.
6. The poll is stupid and pointless, what does it actually resolve?
7. How is it a level playing field (assuming no DRs), when some clubs just bring in old Premiership players on more salary than the entire playing budget of some sides? It was never a level playing field and strangely the clubs with the biggest budgets are at the top.  Who would have thought that would happen Wink
Why is the poll "stupid and pointless"?  If nothing else it has prompted a lively debate, on the subject
Much more stupid and pointless to sit there sneering at people who actually care about 'club rugby'



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 14:56
Originally posted by Pet Monkey Pet Monkey wrote:

There is a lot of misinformation being banded about here.

1. Clubs don't play 10 DRs in a match.
For this season the RFU has promoted the use of 10 DRs by any club. Old Albanians fielded 9 DRs against Caldy but actually that is not my point. My point is that this wholesale use of DRs is very detrimental to club rugby.
2. DR are available a maximum of 50% of the season, probably less.
This makes the position worse for me. I would much prefer that players were loaned for an entire season without the prospect of recall. This would limit the ability of the DR system to sc**w up regular club players and the clubs themselves
3. At Nat 1 level, they are probably 18/19, not the 22/23 year olds. 
If true this is still irrelevant for me.
4. If you look at LS results and DRs, they actually have about the same (slightly worse with more than 2 DR in the starting lineup).  This is due to the right balls up of coaching in the first 1/3 of the season more than anything. So even with DRs you can lose (shock horror). 
I don't understand your point
5. Clubs that are 'safe' and won't be promoted or relegated, switch off and lose matches that perhaps their form say's they shouldn't and the sides struggling try harder, shock horror.  Nothing unusual about that. 
Is this relevant to the point at issue that 'the wholesale use of Dual Registered Players is bad for club rugby'?
6. The poll is stupid and pointless, what does it actually resolve?
Why is the poll stupid? 76 people have voted with 67 agreeing that the wholesale use of DRs damages club rugby and 9 people believing it does not do so. Pretty conclusive I would say.
7. How is it a level playing field (assuming no DRs), when some clubs just bring in old Premiership players on more salary than the entire playing budget of some sides? It was never a level playing field and strangely the clubs with the biggest budgets are at the top.  Who would have thought that would happen Wink

I am not pushing for a level playing field. There will always be have and have nots. I just do not want higher ranking clubs killing Level 3 and level 4 club rugby by swamping them with a bonkers RFU policy promoting the wholesale use of DRs and neither do I want the adoption of a Premiership buddy system that would do the same to the club game as we know it.


Pet Monkey,

thank you for your contribution to this debate even though I think you may just have missed the point of it. You clearly think there is nothing wrong with what is happening and it is your right to publicise and promote that view.

I (and what seems like quite a few others) take a very different view

Kind Regards
Big Eddie




Edited by Big Eddie - 16 Apr 2018 at 15:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 15:11
Originally posted by jimbojetset jimbojetset wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Jimbojetset,

Does the RFU concern itself with the vast losses being incurred in the Premiership where the survival of these teams is dependent on indulgent owners? Nigel Wray, Simon Orange etc

Don't really care about the premiership. Simon Orange is trying to make Sale Sharks sustainable but, personally I don't think they can be given the lack of bums on seats and the geographical pull of the South of England for rugby professionally.

Interesting observation by a Sale FC man. 

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

and would you be happy if Sale Sharks provide Sale FC with up to 10 dual registered players next season who take the place of Sale FC players ?

You keep saying 10 players as if Sale Sharks have ten spare players.  We have 5 or 6 DR players and quite frankly we've rarely had more than 2 playing in any one game after September, so I don't see a time when we will ever field 10 DR players as Sharks just don't have the squad size for them to be available.

My question was hypothetical, this season the RFU has promoted the use of up to 10 DR players by Level 3 clubs. Is this something you would be comfortable with as a Sale FC man if Sale Sharks had the squad to accomodate it?


Edited by Big Eddie - 16 Apr 2018 at 16:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 15:33
First point was the observation of someone with a Masters Degree in Economics, not as a "Sale Man".
I lived for many years in Surrey, the size of population and the cost of living, coupled with the depth of Rugby Union played in schools, clubs etc means that they just have more numbers interested in Rugby Union. 
Second Point
I don't think that Sale FC will be using 10 DR players in any one game next season if the rule still exists.  

The "hypothetical" question isn't relevant as its clearly presented in a "does my bum look big in this" kind of way where you've already decided the answer and I have to provide the one that suits you
 .
 The system is inherently unfair.  If 10 DR's can be used by each club at Nat 1, then that should be every club has access to 10 DR players and then they decide if they want to use them.  Referring to my 1st point above, the RFU often behave in a way that defies basic economics (as do many of the clubs) they don't examine the long term, they are only interested in the immediate future (this season and next) at the elite level its about a four year rotation for the World Cup and nothing else. However, it takes over a decade to develop a player to their full potential realistically.


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