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England V Wales TMO- Try or No Try

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Poll Question: Wales Disallowed Try - Correct Decision?
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Sid James View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 17:45
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Oh dear...

[EDIT] Initially the article just said that Rob Howley reported that they'd had a phone call with Alain Rolland.  Since then, it's been updated to say that World Rugby have confirmed all of the details.  Particularly interesting that they haven't taken the opportunity to say 'but there was a knock-on in the build-up, so the whole conversation is irrelevant anyway'.



If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?

Edited by Sid James - 13 Feb 2018 at 17:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 17:59
Rolland was the referee. Stuart Dickinson was the TMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 18:26
Can a Ref on this forum comment the possible knock-on.

Player tries to catch ball, ball brushes the finger (so contact is made) and then strikes the knee and goes forward.  I'm assuming it went back off the finger for this discussion.

My opinion - you see these given as knock-on all of the time when a player tries to catch the ball and it goes through his arms and then strikes some part of his leg.

Edit:  Just looked at the footage and if it did hit his hand then it went forward off the hand so no try.

Still be nice to get clarification on my original scenario.


Edited by Redted - 13 Feb 2018 at 18:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 19:00
It was not a try, the ref said so


Edited by FHLH - 13 Feb 2018 at 19:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 19:01
Ref didnt give so no try, lets move on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 21:24
Not sure why the last two posters have tried to shut down the debate, which I've found interesting, albeit that there's some frustration for all concerned - the officials, because they effed up, England, because our win's been tainted and we can't prove that we would have won anyway, and Wales for obvious reasons.

While I don't want this to be mentioned repeatedly for 40 years, like Haden's dive, I don't see what's wrong in continuing the discussion on the following Tuesday. If you want to move on, feel free to move on...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 21:52
Sort of agree Islander. IIRC the referee asked for both the grounding and the possible knock on to be reviewed. If again I remember rightly, both were. Conclusion off Knee therefore no knock on, touch down by England therefore no try.

I also believe the questions by the referee to the TMO were therefore correct. If the TMO was incompetent in his review, that is worrying, he had the full benefit of a frame by frame replay (correct me if I am wrong), so how he could get not one, but both calls wrong......

Perhaps I was watching a different game, wouldn’t be the first time.

Also like you, I hope this does not add another chip, which shoulder is bearing the greater burden.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donnyladinsheffield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 22:40
I am not sure he did have the benefit of frame by frame.  Whether he could of (channeling my inner Phil Neville) is another matter.  As I recall it he made his decsion fairly quickly. I think we are shown what he is looking at and at the time he made the decsion it hadn't been clear to me that Anscombe still had contact with the ball when it made contact with the ground (Watson clearly did). So I could understand the decision at that point (especially as the question was 'try or no try' so he would have needed to see a clear grounding).  However on further views I think he probably did still have contact (and a photo I have seen confirms it but although it was not stated I think that was from a photographer not a TV still).

What seemed odd to me was the quality of the replay.  I am sure other sports have better definition replays and do frame by frame (some call it rock and roll going back between two frames).

So in my view it should have been given had the TMO taken more time.  Whilst i am sure we all do not want interminable replays where it is clear one way I would have thought he could have looked at this one a bit closer.  Have not seen the knock on but in answer to the question the definition in the laws of a knock on is 'Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Nothing there or in law 11 about an intervening knee or other non arm/hand body part stopping it being a knock on.  Indeed losing possession backwards from hand but hitting another body part to then go forward and hit the ground/opponant would be a knock on under this definition.  It is only hitting or being hit that has to ne off the hand or arm.

Strangely not many Welsh complained when the TMO got it wrong against Scotland and wrongly awarded the bonus point try despite the clear forward pass Wink

And just to prove we English can have our we woz robbed moments I agree the Cueto try should have been given.  The question was whether he was in touch so there should have been clear evidence he was to not allow the try.  I d not think there was clear evidence he was just as there was no clear evidence he was not.  Stuart Dickinson reffed Donny v Leeds not long after that and I was going to find him in the bar afterwards and ask what test he applied but he reffed so well in that game I decided against itTongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 09:14
Respect for the officials is officially dead, the game really is turning into a sad reflection of what used to be a good game to both play and watch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 09:40
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

 If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?

Ah, but don't forget that it was Alain Rolland who cost Wales the World Cup in 2011 Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 12:38
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

 If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?

Ah, but don't forget that it was Alain Rolland who cost Wales the World Cup in 2011 Wink
 
I agree. Rolland has history but throughout his career he never gave England a thing and, we don't need to give the Welsh any more reason to feel like the poor little working class nation who was robbed! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exiled_Scots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 13:32
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

 If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?


Ah, but don't forget that it was Alain Rolland who cost Wales the World Cup in 2011 Wink

 
I agree. Rolland has history but throughout his career he never gave England a thing and, we don't need to give the Welsh any more reason to feel like the poor little working class nation who was robbed! 


Now now Sid - no need to try and stereotype a nation. It’s a bit like saying that the English are all arrogant and above everyone else. We all however know that is not true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donnyknightsfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 15:41
I have to say when I watched it I thought it was a try but this whole carry on is a bit silly, people should move on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 16:13
Has anyone ever watched a match where they agreed with every decision ?

When it happened i thought "knock on but grounded" so was listening for what question sir asked the TMO - he did ask about whether a knee and grounding so I was expecting him to look at grounding and say "yes grounded but from a knock on so no try back for the penalty". He came to the same final effect off a different decision so in my view all came out in the wash.

Would we be having the same conversation if it was given form the knock on - who knows but Sir said "no try" so "no try", I mean you'll never catch me querying a refs decision on the pitch Embarrassed


Edited by Dad - 14 Feb 2018 at 16:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 16:24
Originally posted by Exiled_Scots Exiled_Scots wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

 If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?


Ah, but don't forget that it was Alain Rolland who cost Wales the World Cup in 2011 Wink

 
I agree. Rolland has history but throughout his career he never gave England a thing and, we don't need to give the Welsh any more reason to feel like the poor little working class nation who was robbed! 


Now now Sid - no need to try and stereotype a nation. It’s a bit like saying that the English are all arrogant and above everyone else. We all however know that is not true.


Not my intention ES,
We aĺl know that most of it is media driven. However, I would like to see the 'arrogant and above everyone else' point argued in some of the Northern Rugby Clubs in England.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exiled_Scots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 20:44
Sid - you described Wales as a “poor little working class nation”, so clearly you have no idea what your intentions are 😊
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 22:07
ES,
It was not my intention to stereotype a nation, just having a go at those who perpetuate the idea of 'poor little Wales etc.
Just like I would never say that 'all' Scots fail to live up to expectations.
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