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The "flat" pass.

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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The "flat" pass.
    Posted: 08 Jun 2013 at 15:37
Watching the Lions this morning and highlights of the RL State of Origin game, the "flat" pass seems to be creeping more and more into the top level game and is being spotted less by the match officials.

Any comments?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billywindsock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2013 at 16:52
When I played, back in the day, we had lots of flat passes. For some reason best known to Sir in the middle, they were called 'forward.'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Fishwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 06:44
I think they are spotted bug tolerated.
That's easy for you to say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hammer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 09:16
Well they are of course not only allowed in RL when put down to the momentum of the player passing but forward motion is allowed for that reason too.

Call me modern but in Union the flat pass seems fine to me as it encourages the ability to break through the stifling defensive systems.

Rugby is no use if nobody wants to watch it (I think a lot of people watch Premiership Rugby but not many enjoy it; I will find out on BT Sport next season although they advertise they will show 38 games AT the start of the season. You would think they would phase them over the season...).



Edited by hammer - 09 Jun 2013 at 09:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 09:37
Flat is fine.
Forward is not permitted.
Spotting the difference at speed when both players and the ref are moving is tough.

There are times when you want a flat pass and times when you want space for a player running from deep. A flat pass turns into a hospital pass if the runner is not in space.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote covmick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 12:12
I had the privilege of watching a small film from New Zealand. This had white lines drawn across the field. On the run a group of players where just passing the ball. With the aid of the line it was easy to see that most of the passes could have been called forward. I am sorry but I can not remember the name of the film. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 12:43
Originally posted by Billywindsock Billywindsock wrote:

When I played, back in the day, we had lots of flat passes. For some reason best known to Sir in the middle, they were called 'forward.'

I concur - flat is forward - is there a Law somewhere?

Quick look at laws does not mention a forward pass but that players (i.e. the receiver of the pass) must not be offside.
Strangely its the one area of the game that we all take for granted but is not (that I can find) defined in the Laws.


Edited by FHLH - 09 Jun 2013 at 13:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hammer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 13:07
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Originally posted by Billywindsock Billywindsock wrote:

When I played, back in the day, we had lots of flat passes. For some reason best known to Sir in the middle, they were called 'forward.'


I concur - flat is forward - is there a Law somewhere?

Quick look at laws does not mention a forward pass but that players (i.e. the receiver of the pass) must not be offside.
Strangely its the one area of the game that we all take for granted but is not (that I can find) defined in the Laws.



I have also had a quick look (IRB) and it refers to a forward throw or pass, which moves the ball closer to the opposition line.

Nothing about a flat pass which, by definition, is not a forward pass.

I was a bit surprised when i first saw richard's thread.

RL allows momentum forward passing and everyone in a crowd will justify a pass saying it was flat as if that makes it legal, which it does appear to.

I thought Richard might have asked this 10 years ago and it hasd somehow flipped up as a new query!

Edited by hammer - 09 Jun 2013 at 13:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 13:07
Originally posted by covmick covmick wrote:

I had the privilege of watching a small film from New Zealand. This had white lines drawn across the field. On the run a group of players where just passing the ball. With the aid of the line it was easy to see that most of the passes could have been called forward. I am sorry but I can not remember the name of the film. 


I have seen that film with the grid lines and most pass`s at speed are forward. The footage is clear evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 13:08
YOUTUBE

TOTAL RUGBY FORWARD PASS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 13:25
Physics? Motion of ball when passed is greater than the backward passing motion?

Edited by FHLH - 09 Jun 2013 at 13:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joemac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 14:40
If a player is running forward at 15mph with the ball in his hands, he would have to throw the ball directlly behind him at 15mph  to merely stop the forward motion of said ball. If my logic is correct, by the self , same token, if  he was to pass the ball at 135 degrees back relative to the line of his forward motion, the ball would have to be thrown at 30mph to stop it's forward motion. Therefore, to achieve a truly backward pass the ball would have to be delivered at the same angle, in excess of 30mph. Is my thinking correct or am I talking a load of bolleaux?
N.B. In the same example, any angle less than 135 degrees, would result in a forward pass.

Edited by Joemac - 09 Jun 2013 at 14:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 15:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hammer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 15:51
That is no doubt highly accurate and refers to the law wording that I did but we have been able to see backwards and forwards passes for many years so it does over-complicate things.

Between the two are flat passes and I think these shouldn't be penalised because they don't disobey the law and because they encourage attcking play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote knightandday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2013 at 11:04
Having seen the film awhile ago, all passes at speed have the potential to be 'forward'. Change the law to 'must pass to a player who is further from the opposition goal line than the passer' or words to that effect
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joemac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2013 at 12:52
Originally posted by knightandday knightandday wrote:

Having seen the film awhile ago, all passes at speed have the potential to be 'forward'. Change the law to 'must pass to a player who is further from the opposition goal line than the passer' or words to that effect
 
To simplify the whole thing: the player receiving the ball must be behind the player passing the ball. Ignore the flight of the ball relative to the ground.


Edited by Joemac - 10 Jun 2013 at 12:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CharlieP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2013 at 13:13

Technically speaking, you can pass to a stationary team-mate who's ahead of you and standing still.  I think pretty much every referee would blow it up though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CharlieP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2013 at 13:16
Originally posted by covmick covmick wrote:

I had the privilege of watching a small film from New Zealand. This had white lines drawn across the field. On the run a group of players where just passing the ball. With the aid of the line it was easy to see that most of the passes could have been called forward. I am sorry but I can not remember the name of the film. 
 
Do you mean this one (which from the look of it was filmed at Ballymore, not New Zealand)?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2013 at 13:52
I think you will find the law says about "intentionally" passing forward. Some of my more learned colleagues may wish to confirm this either way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hammer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2013 at 14:11
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

I think you will find the law says about "intentionally" passing forward. Some of my more learned colleagues may wish to confirm this either way.


I'm not learned but when I read it it didn't say that and the ball slipping out of passers' hands in the hot-weather recent games being punished suggests it's not so - and how on earth do you referee that, with a lie detector test?

Someone explain to me Charlie P's point, please. I really am not learned.
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