Dual Registered and Loan Limits

believe it's £140k per player

its no where near that amount the separate academy salary cap is around that that as the whole total, otherwise if its was £140k per acadmey player the RFU would paying out around £3million just for acadmey players, when clubs only receive around £2.97million towards the main playing budget  

Originally posted by Darcy The England Academies System was implemented a number of years ago as part of an Elite Player Pathway with a view to ensuring that the 'special' players were identified at a suitably early age and provided with the appropriate mentoring and development to maximise their potential. It was recognised years back that our age group levels who at that time were mainly products of the schools systems were physically inferior to their counterparts in the the southern hemisphere and that appropriate conditioning and game development skills should be delivered as early as possible.

The System was developed to to create an elite player pathway from a limited resource, one that existed already, and cost very little to bolt structures onto.  The System ignores the vast majority of potential talent from outside the public schools system, and as I've stated before, creating Elite Players from a tiny population resource only ensures that your Elite Players aren't as 'elite' as you might believe.

Any latent developing talent created outside the public school system by the Club structure is very poorly tapped into, and certainly once a player reaches 18 they are very much overlooked and dismissed, any statement that supports the idea that Premiership sides look seriously at such latent developing talent is lying basically, no question.  Such a player would have no chance to present his skills or ability as the Premiership sides won't even be looking in his direction, let alone taking note of what they might see.

The only players that they do take note of are the club contracted or amatuer players vastly outperforming any Academy players dual regging within the league structure, they are so much better than their 'elite players' that they have to act.

You misunderstand, I'm not cynical, I'm stating facts here; the pool of talent is small, and the RFU has no plans to target the actual pool of talent available.

Clubs at lower levels can sometimes be less objective than needs be, RDO's have no powers other than offering advice, and not all RDO's vacancies are filled, CBs can be dependent on who wants to take on the roles within it, recognition goes as far as an email perhaps to the player or parents, but it goes no further than that, the RFU Pathway Documentation largely is dependent on the interest of individuals.

I've yet to see the Pathway Documentation produce results in terms of recognising and recommending talent, but in terms of standards there are none written down anywhere that I can see or find.

I think tinkering with the small pool of talent that RFU addresses will improve it to a point, and finding the best Coach in the World will make the talent play at its best, but the underlying problem is the size of the pool restricting the level of elite player we are able to field.  With the number of young people in this country we should be winning the World Cup every time its played, yet with a population of 62 million in England, we're regularly routed by the Welsh in the Six Nations, and Wales has a population of around 3 million.

The System is broken, or even bent, and the RFU is re-arranging the deck chairs as the ship goes down; the PRL cartel marches on, and the Championship drifts on, but level 3 and below are left scratching around to survive.

However, I'll put my rose tinted specs back on in September to give me a different perspective, although I've noted that the beer seems to help.

Wireless is correct,and my observations are not sour gloquats,my lad played all rep levels including England, england 7s Prem and now Champ.A large number of players are marginalised,because of the continued focus on public schools by tre RFU.I would be very interested to see how many public school boys are playing in the top two leagues.A huge pool of talent is largely ignored.

Wireless, I have to take issue with the view that the Academy system is all about Public or Independent Schools. The AASE system has been established precisely to get into the State School field. That structure enables boys identified through the State system to focus on rugby while gaining good A levels as well, it's definitely not about the few but trying to identify the best of the many. 

I think you need to get out a bit more Bill, or maybe  take an interest in Schools Rugby. The "Advanced Apprenticeship in Sporting Excellence" is a scheme which targets the "late developers" at U16 (sorry Under sixteen level) who don't have the backing of the Public School system and is run at places like Worcester sixth form college, Hartpury College and Moulton.

Having been a passive and very interested observer of the Forum, this particular topic is one where I feel I can contribute to the debate, giving an overview of my experience of the system over many years, where I am still involved.

Cornish Chief

I suspect that the reasons for the creation of the 'gym monkeys' is down to at least 2 factors:

1. The identification that in the past we did not match the southern hemispheres younger age groups in terms of physicality and fitness and were therefore perceived to be at a disadvantage before we even started 2. Sports science now provides us with the knowledge as to how to improve strength, speed, stamina etc. and most importantly all of these things can be measured, progress can be tracked and comparisons can be made.

Reliably Ugly

I agree that in broad terms we are in agreement. Perhaps some of the details of our experiences differ but we seem to come to much the same conclusions.

Your post caused me to think once again about my sons experience. He falls firmly into the 'imagination and guile' camp. My son was widely regarded as the most talented player of a group of very good players who grew up playing together for their club winning many trophies along the way. 6 of the group went off to 2 different Academies at the age of 16 and now 3 have been offered professional contracts. He has enjoyed his 2 years of Rugby at an AASE College immensely, played at a high standard in Japan, Ireland and the UK.

All sounds great and his experience has on the whole been positive. But his two former teamates who are bigger and more powerful have England Age group honours and contracts at a Premiership club whereas my son (universally regarded as the more talented player) has no Age Group honours and a contract at a tier 3 club.

I have thought many times that a player like my son would no doubt find things somewhat different in a country like Australia where they seem to put talent first.

If my son should fulfill his ambition of playing Rugby at the highest level it will not be down to the system. Yes he has had some benefit from the system but has not been nurtured in the way that players of his ilk should be. As you rightly point out 'Every Nation can produce big physical players, that should be the given, the system should be tailored to produce and encourage the X Factor player, the player who can also offer "imagination and guile", that should be at the top of the developmental list.'

This is not happening and everyone wonders why we cannot compete on the National stage.

I would add that there are no sour gloquats on my part. I have long since given up chewing on them and dealt with the system as it is rather than wishing it was what I believe it should be.

The system does need to be changed to reflect a wider ambition for the English game. Our teams will struggle to produce the wonderful Rugby we crave and largely see as the preserve of the SH Teams, if we continue as we are. There are too many barriers in the way of the X factor players who can change a game.

I know what, let's blame the comprehensive system for lack of rugby players as well as everything else!!!

I'll echo Cheshire Exile in thanking Reliably Ugly and Cornish Chief for the informed discussion. IMHO the pathway for young players through the EPDG (Emerging Players Development Group) the AASE structure, etc. really grew as part of a process of trying to get round the negative approaches taken by some CBs (Counties, in this case).

Reliably Ugly

You have followed the forum correctly. Dan will be playing for Cambridge in ND1 this season (if selected). I am very happy with his choice of club and advised him to take up the offer. I think the playing style at Cambridge should suit him very well. The point I was making about his peers was that the system tends to promote a certain type of player. His peers with the Prem. contracts will in all likelyhood be playing in ND1 next season anyway.

I would love to take you up on a beer, many thanks for the offer, however I don't yet know which games I will be able to make. Which is your club ? Tynedale ?

Bill, the League is closer than that! You can pick up the fixtures at www.schoolsrugby.co.uk which shows details of most schools. The details about it are here http://www.rfu.com/TakingPart/CareersInRugby/Programmes/AASE.aspx and, yes, the AASE schools are linked to the Academies but that is for coaching support. This year's competition was tight and, as has been said before, matches the standards of the Daily Mail Cup. AASE sides cannot enter that competition since they don't comply with the "residency" rules. 

Commenting on the arrangement Leeds Carnegie Director of Rugby Andy Key said, “This is something that worked extremely well for us last season with the likes of Joe Ford and Luther Burrell and I believe it is vital in helping young players developed to their full potential. The players will be monitored closely by our own Academy staff and their performances for Doncaster reviewed. They will also have the opportunity to play in the A League with us on Monday nights and this will be a chance for them to show their ability and force their way into the first team squad, as Ford and Burrell did last season.”

Both clubs have agreed a protocol under which the arrangements would operate. During the week the players would train with Leeds in the early part before linking up with the Knights on a Wednesday for the remainder. In terms of selection, both parties were adamant that the players had to earn their place in the Knights team on merit.

Christian Lewis-Pratt signed for Leeds Carnegie this summer from Premiership rivals Northampton Saints on a two year contract. London-born Lewis-Pratt was a regular for Northampton in the A League last season and it was his appearances against Leeds Carnegie that drew him to their attention.

James Craig is a 21 year old lock who hails originally from Beverley. He is 6’ 6” tall and weighs 17st 4lb. He has represented England at Under 16 and Under 18 level. He has previously had spells on loan with Otley and Rotherham Titans.

Chris Walker is an 18 year old openside flanker who is about to embark on a tour of South Africa with the England Under 18 squad after helping them to complete the Grand Slam last season with a try against Ireland in the final game. Chris started his rugby life with North Ribblesdale from where he was selected for England Under 16s and he spent most of last season on loan to Otley.