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Dual Registered and Loan Limits |
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donnyladinsheffield 
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Location: er...Sheffield? Online Status: Offline Posts: 682 |
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 Topic: Dual Registered and Loan LimitsPosted: 18 Jun 2010 at 10:39 |
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Taken from the RFU release posted on our site;
The transfer deadline for signing players ahead of the Play-Offs has been extended by two weeks until Friday, January 28, prior to Round 19. In addition, clubs may not play or select as a replacement in a match more than six England Academy players and loan players, of which no more than three shall be loan players.
Whilst not quite the death of DR it will not be in the rude health it was. A combined maximum of 6 DR and loanees in a match day squad of 22 means that at least 16 need to be contracted and registered only to the club. To allow for injury cover and resting to those positions I cannot see a club getting away with less than 25 contracted and registered in a full squad. Whilst you can then boost your squad with as many DR's as you want it is not going to be the cost efficient way to get a core squad that it was. Also clubs are likely to need to keep thier powder dry on a couple of loanees to cover unexpectedly high injury toll during the season. If they cover full squad members it then reduces further the use that can be made of your DR players in the match day squad. Edited by donnyladinsheffield - 18 Jun 2010 at 10:40 |
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He only laughs when he's sad. But he's sad all the time so he laughs the whole night through - he laughs in the daytime too.
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rotherhamtillidie
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Joined: 29 May 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 194 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 10:58 |
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All that clubs are going to do it have the DR structure reversed... So nottingham have signed some spanish guy and he is on nottingham's books, but can then get DR'd with leicester. They then just tweak their financial arrangement and bobs your uncle.... |
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donnyladinsheffield
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Location: er...Sheffield? Online Status: Offline Posts: 682 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 11:13 |
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Not sure you can do it that way at all. You can only DR England Academy players anyway. Therefore they need to be contracted to a GP club (plus Bris and Worc) before they can be registered with another club. The Regulations forbid DR of any other players. Even then do not think the Regulations recognise a primary and secondary club as it were. If a player is DR he is DR. Have not seen the detailed regulations yet but on the face of it I assume that if Bristol (are they keeping their Academy?) and Worcester were to DR one of their Academy players with another club (Championship or below) but then played him themselves he would still count towards the 6 maximum.
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He only laughs when he's sad. But he's sad all the time so he laughs the whole night through - he laughs in the daytime too.
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donnyladinsheffield
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 11:27 |
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Actually on reflection the press release does not mention DR. It says there is a limit on England Academy players not DR players. As the only way those of us other than Bris and Worc would have Academy players is by way of loan or DR it is a de facto limit on them.
For Worc and Bris the limit will therefore apply in relation to all their Academy players, not just those they may have DR with another club. I assume the rationale for this is that as they have access to these players from RFU funding not their own resources it 'levels the playing field' in that all clubs can have the benefit of up to 6 RFU funded players, either from their own Academy or DR with someone elses. Of course Bris and Worc have the advantage in that they have a supply on tap whereas the other clubs need an arrangement with a GP club but at least it moves it closer to being fair.
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He only laughs when he's sad. But he's sad all the time so he laughs the whole night through - he laughs in the daytime too.
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Nottmrugbymad
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Nottingham Joined: 23 May 2007 Location: Bouvet Island Online Status: Offline Posts: 992 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 11:39 |
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Frankly sick of the whole damned DR nonsense - it just breeds discontent and spoils your team balance as players don't get time to gell with those around them. Whats the point of a 12T's or a Pienaar playing the odd game for you? Also how can you give the young player of the year award to a player who does not consider himself to be part of your club (when there are players who would happily die for the club and are over looked). Humbug and nonsense. Colours nailed to the mast I Hate DR.
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Halliford
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Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 167 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 12:35 |
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It looks a sensible approach and one which fits with what Esher has been doing for several seasons. last season we on occasion had Marler or Frazier, Smith, Chisholm and York in the match-day squad - all England Academy D/Rs. No loan players so that's fine.
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cheshire exile
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 14:37 |
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So it's apparently fine to have 25 % of your matchday squad from the England Academy contingent, PLUS [if the press release above is the full version] any number of DR players who are not from the Academy.
In fact you hardly need any contracted players at all......
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alcoholic
Academy player 
Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Location: Bristol Online Status: Offline Posts: 23 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 15:11 |
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To be honest I read the loan players as the Dual Registered players. Because the second team they are playing for is not their ontracted team. And the first team/rfu are probably the people that pay the bulk of their wages.
I see this as a reaction to the increasing number of links between Championship teams and Premiership/magners league teams.
And I say fair play to the RFU for this rule, as I don't think it benefits too many people.
There are plenty of talented players in ND1 and below that deserve the step up, but often don't get it because certain teams have 12 dual registered players on their books and can't justify an additional signing where they would have to pay the wages.
Also in what way are DR players not Loaned to the club? There is an agreement between clubs, but no formal contract, and it certainly isn't a 1 year contract with a clause to return to the previous club!!!
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Halliford
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Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 167 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 15:22 |
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As I understand it, Dual Registered only applies to England Academy players. Anyone contracted to a Premiership Club not on an England Academy contract is then covered by the Loan criterion. So a Club can play up to 3 players contracted to a Premiership Club but on short- or long-term loan to a Championship Club and they can play 3-6 England Academy players dual registered with them, provided always that the players in both categories add up to no more than 6 in total.
Yes, a Club could have more than that on their books but they couldn't play them in the League team. Edited by Halliford - 18 Jun 2010 at 15:22 |
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Bluesman11
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Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 256 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 16:02 |
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Yes but the England Acadamy criteria is a bit iffey. Last year Joe Duffey counted as part of the England Acadamy even though he was a 27 year old Kiwi! I don't think that statement was very clear. I understand it as 6 DR/loans, with no more than 3 being loans. I.e. you could have 6 DRs, or 3 loans and 3 DRs etc. I think all of Nottingham's would be classed as DRs, as I mentioned Joe Duffey counts as part of the England Acadamy and I'm pretty sure the rest were, the only exception I can think of was Sam Vesty who would have been a loan. As Nottingham, or anyone for that matter, only featured more than 6 on a couple of occasions, I can't see it changing much. I would have capped it at 3 loans/DRs, I think that's a fair number and would stop all the whining!
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BillesleyNomad
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Moseley Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 739 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 16:14 |
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I'm certain that a good number of people would get a lot less hot under the collar about DR if they actually understood the regulations. It is only RFU academy players who may hold effective registration with 2 clubs; there are therefore no "other" DR players. The majority of these players while talented are very inexperienced and certainly not suited to forming the nucleus of a team in level 2.
Alcoholic, I think if you examine the cause and effect of clubs using dr players you will always find that they would prefer to have directly contracted players, it's not the case that they chooser to have DR's and thus deny squad places to players below level 2 but that they can't affored them. If you want to look at the root cause of this look to the clubs who have continually employed fulltime squads they can't afford. Clubs use DR as a means of staying competative with them.
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'To make an apt answer is a joy to a man, and a word in season, how good it is.' Proverbs 15:23
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Squadron Leader
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Joined: 24 Apr 2009 Location: Southwell, Nott Online Status: Offline Posts: 272 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 17:01 |
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I won't even bother entering the debate on this one..!
There'll be so many smokescreens and fudging from the main offenders that you would need a whole government department just to police it.....still, if it allows some clubs to survive and compete at a level they probably shouldn't be then fine!
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Upward and Onward!
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alcoholic
Academy player
Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Location: Bristol Online Status: Offline Posts: 23 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 2010 at 17:13 |
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I understand the point about the DR's. Bristol do that, and spread them around the ND2 and below clubs that we have locally. So why shouldn't the Premiership, and it is only so they can gain experience of a matchday environment, and build skills the best way possible by playing the game. But these players will rarely start every game, because as you said they are inexperienced. However I think it is more down to the Loan side of it (seeing as the RFU implicity said the limit is 3 loan signings in a matchday squad) after certain rumours about fringe players from Ospreys joining up with London Welsh.
However your point on clubs would prefer contracted players over DR's maybe tested this season, as clubs will regularly have to have 16 fit and able contracted players each match, and probably in reality they will have to have larger squads than either a) they normally would and/or b) they can afford.
And with three teams that suffered financial difficulties during last season, and Bristol paying the cost of failing to gain promotion at the moment, there could be some very tough times next season for all but the sternest of budgeters!!!
And there is even rumours of Sale's struggles with more players leaving than currently joining, however it is still early doors for them, so it's just rumours at the moment.
So the RFU may find this backfires on them come the new year.
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Garvey4England
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Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Location: Worcester Online Status: Online Posts: 44 |
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Posted: 19 Jun 2010 at 08:11 |
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Doesn't look like the academy players will get a look in at Sixways next season !
Richard Hill quote
", so we’ll have a slightly different system where we have a squad of 33 senior players which I will work with.
“you’ll always have a couple of injuries so it is less than 33 — ideally 30, so we can have 15 versus 15. “Then there will be an intermediate group in between the seniors and the academy, which will be a bit of a cross-over and people from that group will slot into the first-team as and when there are injuries.” |
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titan
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Rotherham Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 354 |
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Posted: 19 Jun 2010 at 13:26 |
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I wasnt impressed last season with the lads we got from Leeds and I like to see contracted players playing,if a club has taken you on and your good enough you should be playing for them!Get rid of as many overseas players as possible,RFU fund all Champ and Prem clubs to have an A team and Academy coach,cover expenses and organise a full seasons fixtures for A and Academy,surely thats not dificult?
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Bill Sley
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Posted: 19 Jun 2010 at 17:50 |
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Simple way to end the DR issue - give the Championship clubs the money for an academy. They can then retain the players they developed in the first place and not lose them to an RFU funded gymnasium.
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Top of the Hill
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Posted: 19 Jun 2010 at 18:50 |
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I sit atop all creation, and all that I survey is great... and Cornish!
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titan
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Posted: 19 Jun 2010 at 19:42 |
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Its not about talent grabbing,its about developing young players.Thats why I said clear out non english qualified players.Then have three leagues running in tandem in champ and prem: first team A and Academy in24 teams that should be enough to cater for all prospects.
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donnyladinsheffield
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Posted: 19 Jun 2010 at 21:37 |
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I'm with you on this one TOTH. I have repeatedly said that my impression is that the vast majority of dual registered Academy players are below level two and as yet no-one has contradicted me (probably because most people ignore what I say  ).IMO (Rhubarb the H) there is no more justification for the Championship receiving money for Academies than there is for the Premiership. |
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He only laughs when he's sad. But he's sad all the time so he laughs the whole night through - he laughs in the daytime too.
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donnyladinsheffield
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Posted: 19 Jun 2010 at 21:41 |
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And in case anyone is in any doubt IMO there is no justification for the GP being funded for the Academies
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He only laughs when he's sad. But he's sad all the time so he laughs the whole night through - he laughs in the daytime too.
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Bill Sley
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Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 04:53 |
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It wasn't my intention to simply suggest moving the whole function from one cartel to another.
My real beef is that the RFU pay Premiership clubs to take the talent away from where it came from- and where the players are best placed to further their careers. Any club that has the structure in place to fast track talent should be assisted in doing this, not penalised for bringing players through.
I accept that exceptionally talented youngsters need better coaching/advice than that attained at 'social' clubs. I'm sure these clubs would also accept this - the level that the club plays at is not particularly relevant - it's the structure and organisation to be able to provide coaching and structured game time that is important.
There's just no sense in having a talented youngster come through any club and then get tempted away by a letter bearing a red rose only to find they spend their days in the gym and (at best) on a bench.
I know of many from my club (As I'm sure many others reading this board do) that have done precisely this and having played every week for years (which has helped develop them into the talented players they are), suddenly found last season they only played 4 or 5 matches but had a different physique!
Quite apart from the player perspective, clubs outside the Premiership desperately need funding. Their only recourse without the funding is to develop more young players.........but that's undermined by them being snatched away............Catch 22. Edited by Bill Sley - 20 Jun 2010 at 04:55 |
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Garvey4England
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Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Location: Worcester Online Status: Online Posts: 44 |
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Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 05:35 |
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We have to be careful that our attitude isn't governed by our perceptions, resulting, unfortunately in a rather simplistic view.
Firstly, the Academy system is only part funded by the RFU (currently two and a half million pounds) meaning there has to be a considerable investment by individual Clubs.
Secondly, having developed and invested in a young player there is nothing to stop him moving to a bigger club. Something we have found to our cost at Worcester as the better players are merely "Cherry picked" by the elite Clubs.
The inevitability of this has caused many at wuss, including myself, to question the validity of any academy investment
The reality is that talent and ability go hand in hand with ambition and these youngsters will ultimately be driven towards the spotlight of Heineken Rugby and the top coaches. We have to realise that the system is about recognising and developing latent talent for English Rugby and is about individuals not Clubs.
There are currently around 600 full-time professionals in the English game and around 300 youngsters spread around the academies. Obviously not all of these are going to go on to play for England and many will filter down through Club Rugby to find their natural levels.
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matchmaker
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Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 10:01 |
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600 full time pros and the salary cap applied, produces in round terms £10k per player - I think. Hardly an exciting career prospect for some. I am certain that there are a number of semi-pros whose take home pay is better.
Discuss.
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Camquin
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Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 10:39 |
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MM, I think you have a deciml point error. 12*£6m / 600 = £120K Camquin |
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Blood and Sand
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Garvey4England
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Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Location: Worcester Online Status: Online Posts: 44 |
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Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 11:40 |
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Your valiant attempts to estimate an average wage using my figure of 600 are unfortunately flawed by the inclusion of Coaches wages being within the cap plus the existence of full-time pros outside the top division.
The salary cap for this last season was 4 million pound and I believe will remain at that level for this year.
Most of the full-time contracts are 50k - 100k for uncapped players. Obviously capped players are able to negotiate more than this. Worcesters Pat Sanderson, for instance is on around 150k. The top earner last year was Carl Hayman who was reputed to be on 330k.
Hope this helps |
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titan
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Rotherham Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 354 |
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Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 18:17 |
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A couple of observations,not all players are interested in money per se,at pt Titans the wage will be about 10k for many,its still an excellent standard of rugby to be involved in.I advocate removing all academy funding,apart from an A/Academy coach and expenses in champ and prem.Organise a full set of fixtures/league for A and Academy.All talented youngsters will gravitate to best standard they can get to ,.fact no club should stand in their way,they will eventually find their own level be it national or social rugby
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Wireless
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Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 21:04 |
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After personal experience, I would have to disagree with that statement. Worcester Academy's primary links are with public schools, and their interest in latent developing talent beyond those links within the U18 age group and later years is extremely limited. |
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There's always next week...
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titan
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Rotherham Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 354 |
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Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 22:36 |
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Quite true,also from personal experience public schools influence in rep rugby far too great in proportion to numbers.
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Darcy
Academy player
Joined: 25 Jun 2010 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3 |
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Posted: 25 Jun 2010 at 19:59 |
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The England Academies System was implemented a number of years ago as part of an Elite Player Pathway with a view to ensuring that the 'special' players were identified at a suitably early age and provided with the appropriate mentoring and development to maximise their potential. It was recognised years back that our age group levels who at that time were mainly products of the schools systems were physically inferior to their counterparts in the the southern hemisphere and that appropriate conditioning and game development skills should be delivered as early as possible. I may be a little bit out of date, but my understanding is that those that are managing the development of the individual players (England and local academy managers) should decide on the appropriate level of games and competition to suit, hence the ability to place the players with other clubs to get the right amount and level of game time.
As one of the previous correspondents stated, I therefore believe that it is about the individual not the club, and more importantly it is also about country as well. The system is designed to maximise the quality and performance of the England representative teams and as clubs operating at the higher end of the game we are, in essence, all part of that.
Club or Country, or both?
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cheshire exile
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Posted: 25 Jun 2010 at 22:17 |
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I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Premiership clubs sign up young talent using the huge amount of money they get from the RFU for their senior squad England players[I believe it's £140k per player] , partly to keep them away from other clubs, then stick them in the gym and/or farm them out to Championship or Nat 1 clubs who can't afford their own squads.
The system is perpetuated by the serried ranks of RFU funded Academy coaches who have a vested interest in helping "develop" these young players.
The sad truth is that the income in the game is increasingly polarised, with the RFU even taking the gate money from the B&I Cup Final despite their inability to find a sponsor for the competition.
The cutbacks in funding for the "community" game make it even harder for the clubs who, in many cases, have developed the young players to hang onto them, given the seductive promises made by others, including, of course, agents.
Why should the game be about the individual, not the club? The former will inevitably come and go, the clubs and their many volunteers are the bedrock of the game.
And if the system is designed to "maximise the quality and performance of the England representative teams", where is the evidence that it's working?
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