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Cornish Arguments Thread

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ianbol View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ianbol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2012 at 17:34
I would have no objection to Cornwall declaring independance. Half the population, being English ex-pats, would slide hurredly back across the Tamar for security and intellectual conversation leaving the rest to wollow with a language hardly anyone can speak and a dull diet of them things called --- damn, I've forgotton.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2012 at 19:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dotcom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2012 at 19:48
Want to know what we do in Penzance when there's no rugby?

This is on now and reaches its climax  next Sunday.

Pensans A'gas Dynergh



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exeforever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2012 at 22:04
Originally posted by Lost Forward Lost Forward wrote:

Originally posted by Exeforever Exeforever wrote:

Cornish language is part of the Celtic P group and as British (or at least a descendant thereof) it is quite possible that it survived in pockets in Devon for several centuries after the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Devon.  It's difficult enough to get to places like East Prawle or Hartland today so in the 9th and 10th centuries they were probably untouched other than from the sea.  Sadly most of the Devonian dialect speakers have now died so it is impossible to do a serious study of how many dialect words derive from the Celtic ur-tongue and how many are just descriptive or an "interesting" pronunciation of a standard English word.
 
I tend to think of Basque as being a language left behind by passing extra-terrestrials though I see that it is increasingly being lumped in with the other Celtic languages, perhaps for cultural rather than philological reasons.

 Interesting theory, I've also read a paper that stated the same for 'Welsh' survival in pockets of Dorset. However, the almost 100% replacement of Celtic place names by Anglo-Saxon would seem to indicate that this wasn't the case. The Tamar (and the Otter) show a clear linguistic divide which is replicated only on the English/Welsh border.
 As for Basque, research shows that it's unrelated to either 'P' or 'Q' Celtic, it's nearest relation being found in the Caucasus.
 
I would argue that because a place undergoes a name change that doen't necessarily mean that the working inhabitants change; therefore you could go from calling somewhere e.g. Llyr's valley and rename it e.g. Horsa's Tun and replace the landowner or landholder but the peasants may well continue to be the same people and still, at least for some generations, speak the old language amongst themselves.  In the 60's I knew an elderly Welsh lady who had lived in Exeter with her daughter and son-in-law for 20 years but who spoke not a word of English (fortunately they were both native Welsh speakers).  Generally penetration into the hinterland of highland Britain including the area West of the Exe was a much more gradual process than seizing control of the strategic routes and towns and in a largely untutored rural proletariat I find it hard to believe that total linguistic change would have come about in much less than 3 or 4 generations.  The survival of British names for natural features such as Avon as a river name also suggests that the Anglo-Saxons coalesced with the native population rather than extirpating it and its language.  Until the Normans arrived with their obsession with book-keeping, tax raising and other instruments of feudalism I suspect that linguistic and indeed cultural change may have been more gradual than we were taught, at least at 'ground level'.


Edited by Exeforever - 17 Jun 2012 at 22:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Garvey4England Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2012 at 08:41
Lost forward, I was aware that I had spelt Jonathan Trelawny's name incorrectly but chose not to correct it. My reasoning being as he was only one of seven bishops arrested, and, as I couldn't remember the names of the other six, and, as they were all found not guilty anyway, it really didn't merit the effort of an edit.
Can I say I'm definitely not anti-Cornish. I am possibly anti-nationalist as I believe we now live in a world where we should be seeking to abolish borders rather than create them.
Back to the Victorians. I probably concur with the views of Henry Jenner...

There has never been a time when there has been no person in Cornwall without a knowledge of the Cornish language … The reason why a Cornishman should learn Cornish, the outward and audible sign of his separate nationality, is sentimental, and not in the least practical, and if everything sentimental were banished from it, the world would not be as pleasant a place as it is


Edited by Garvey4England - 18 Jun 2012 at 09:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2012 at 09:38
I don't know why the nationalist argument has come into this. There are many Cornish people, myself included, who will proudly defend their identity without seeking independence. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2012 at 10:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crp47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2012 at 12:28
For some of us Rugby is a religion. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2012 at 13:42
Originally posted by Redhead Redhead wrote:

I don't know why the nationalist argument has come into this. There are many Cornish people, myself included, who will proudly defend their identity without seeking independence. 

Well said, +1 on this.

Also +1 on Henry Jenner's quote on the Cornish language.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lost Forward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2012 at 20:39
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Originally posted by Redhead Redhead wrote:

I don't know why the nationalist argument has come into this. There are many Cornish people, myself included, who will proudly defend their identity without seeking independence. 

Well said, +1 on this.

Also +1 on Henry Jenner's quote on the Cornish language.

  +2, absolutely spot on.
    I get fed up having to defend the fact that just because I identify myself as Cornish doesn't mean I want to kick out the English and cast Kernow adrift into the Atlantic. The supreme irony of the fact that usually the people that object most strongly to this position are the same ones waving St.George crosses and bellowing ''Come on Ingerlaaaand'' is sadly lost on them. TongueLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saffroncake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2012 at 22:14
"Scones, clotted cream first, or jam first????"

Actually it should be splits not scones

Oh and it's jam first, cream on top.

Mmmmm....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2012 at 23:53
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Welsh & Cornish are the 'purest Britons', scientists claim:
 
Most of the Welsh birds I've known weren't particularly pure......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2012 at 01:38
Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Welsh & Cornish are the 'purest Britons', scientists claim:
 
Most of the Welsh birds I've known weren't particularly pure......

And not that particular one assumes, or didn't you know them that well? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2012 at 08:37
LOL Thumbs Up Touche!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2012 at 13:50

It's good to see that this treatise (from Canada) shows interst in Cornwall (and it's blood) is worldwide, as well as foot shape.  Special boots for Cornish clubs?

"I remember that many years ago (30 or 40) there was a report of the results of a study resulting from British Red Cross blood donations during and shortly after WW II. This showed that blood groups of those living near the coast of Cornwall were different from those living inland - presumably due to the influence of raiders. My father had blood
group O+, my mother (who was less than 25% Cornish) had A+ (as do I).

Has any scientific study been published on foot shapes ? With over 75% Cornish or Devon ancestry (over the last 400 years)- the other 25% are Staffordshire / Shropshire / Lancashire, Huguenot and Welsh - my sisters and I as well as several cousins (who have less Cornish ancestry) have long thin (shallow) low arched (flat) feet with second toes at least equal in length to first toes. Even with my wife's 75% Irish/Scots & 25%
English ancestry, our two sons have almost identically shaped and sized feet as mine."

When is the first match.......... please .................. aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh?




Edited by FHLH - 19 Jun 2012 at 13:51
“Whatever their achievements in other pursuits, the chief pride and glory of Bedfordians lies in their football.”
To Harry Stillman RIP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2012 at 14:04
"my sisters and I as well as several cousins (who have less Cornish ancestry) have long thin (shallow) low arched (flat) feet with second toes at least equal in length to first toes. Even with my wife's 75% Irish/Scots & 25%
English ancestry, our two sons have almost identically shaped and sized feet as mine."

As long as they're not webbed, I wouldn't worry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2012 at 14:13
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

"my sisters and I as well as several cousins (who have less Cornish ancestry) have long thin (shallow) low arched (flat) feet with second toes at least equal in length to first toes. Even with my wife's 75% Irish/Scots & 25%
English ancestry, our two sons have almost identically shaped and sized feet as mine."

As long as they're not webbed, I wouldn't worry.


That's the Forest of Dean!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJB1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2012 at 14:37
Originally posted by Redhead Redhead wrote:

Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

"my sisters and I as well as several cousins (who have less Cornish ancestry) have long thin (shallow) low arched (flat) feet with second toes at least equal in length to first toes. Even with my wife's 75% Irish/Scots & 25%
English ancestry, our two sons have almost identically shaped and sized feet as mine."

As long as they're not webbed, I wouldn't worry.


That's the Forest of Dean!

Morecambe bay, surely?
…...EDF Trophy winners 2009; “Onwards and Upwards”……
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2012 at 16:19
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

"my sisters and I as well as several cousins (who have less Cornish ancestry) have long thin (shallow) low arched (flat) feet with second toes at least equal in length to first toes. Even with my wife's 75% Irish/Scots & 25%
English ancestry, our two sons have almost identically shaped and sized feet as mine."

I really wish this didn't interest me! I inherited the second toe thing through my father's side of the family which is Cornish as far as I am able to go back. My mother, whose side of the family isn't as "thoroughbred" doesn't share this trait.

Come one and all which camp do you fall into and how Cornish (if at all) are you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJB1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2012 at 16:30
My mother's maiden name was Rowe, so I guess there's some Cornish blood a few generations back.  Not sure how far, mind, probably at least 4 or 5.
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