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Level 3 & Below. New League Stucture.

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Rabbie Burns View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2020 at 08:57
You cannot include Last season results makes absolutely no sense. You need to start with a level field
So many Christians not enough Lions
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Halliford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2020 at 09:06
I agree with both. Our Club submission to the NCA said we preferred a 45 match season 20/22 with promotion and restructuring deferred until April 2022. I don’t know what other Clubs have said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2020 at 10:01
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

There are 3 structures to the season. 30 matches if we start 1st Sep or 1st Oct, now not possible, 22 matches if we start November/ December based on 1 match against everyone then top 8 and bottom 8 playing home and away. The third option is starting January and playing 15 matches, 1 against everyone. The NCA have just consulted on promotion options. Are clubs happy to be promoted based on just the 15, would they prefer to add the 15 to the 19/20 results or would they prefer to add the 15 to 21/22 results, the latter meaning the restructure would be postponed to next year. In TRP Canterbury threw their toys out of the prom and said they wanted 14 games, home and away in a regional group covering Levels 3 and 4. That hasn’t been on the table.


Not sure how you can add the 15 results to last season as a number of teams will have been in different divisions??

Only answer would be to add them to the 21/22 results - pushing the proposed reorganisation back a year (or hopefully even longer)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blutarsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2020 at 10:07
Because of the restructure this coming season’s outcome makes no odds in nat 2. We will be getting 2 down and 8 up regardless. 

Edited by Blutarsky - 18 Aug 2020 at 10:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2020 at 10:57
I suspect no relegation from National 2 - as your league increases from 32 to 42 teams.
Two might come from National 1, but not if the Championship increase to 14 or 16.
I hope the National 2 Champions are promoted - so up to 4 down from from National 1 (ouch).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Fishwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2020 at 11:51
If it ends up with anything less than a full season, as now seems inevitable, then my view is that it shouldn't count for anything other than match practice and raising whatever income clubs can. No-one goes up or down and any re-organisation happens in 2022.
That's easy for you to say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2020 at 12:00
Originally posted by Albert Fishwick Albert Fishwick wrote:

If it ends up with anything less than a full season, as now seems inevitable, then my view is that it shouldn't count for anything other than match practice and raising whatever income clubs can. No-one goes up or down and any re-organisation happens in 2022.


If there isn't anything on the games, I suspect a raft of late cancellations especially from teams who are facing long away trips.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TigerTitan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2020 at 13:02
Yet more nonsense from the RFU. They have been suggesting reforms to the leagues for years now. Nothing changes and I don't think it needs to, either. The only 'woe' as it stands is financial mismanagement. This is not an issue for the RFU. 

What are the costs of these reviews? How much do the jobs for the boys consultants get? 

If clubs overreach, spend to much and end up insolvent, they should be relegated as appropriate. 

Idiotic owners will be weeded out and stability will be restored.

Balancing the books should be easy. Pre-COVID, all clubs had a reasonably accurate idea of what their average gate would be, how many home games they would host and how much they would bring in via advertisement, sponsorship etc.  

If the budget is £250,000 (for example) and you know you've got 30 league games per year, with 20 players per match, and the going 'pay as you play' rate is say, £200 per match, then you put all your players on that rate and know that you will pay out £120,000 in match fees.

You then have £130,000 to spend on support staff, retainers, coaches, travel, etc.

There aren't too many variables to consider. A club driving itself into the ground says more about the management at said club than the need to reform league systems.

Rugby clubs are a business. Owners / the board / directors of rugby need to accept some responsibility and get on with it.

Fed up of the RFU constantly attempting to rejig things because some idiot old boys cant run a (relatively small) business within budget and blame everyone else but themselves.


Edited by TigerTitan - 18 Aug 2020 at 13:03
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 08:31
One point about the document is the complete lack of mention of sevens. 
Surely a new structure should include summer sevens festivals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 08:44
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

One point about the document is the complete lack of mention of sevens. 
Surely a new structure should include summer sevens festivals.
Why would it? It's a completely separate sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 09:10
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

One point about the document is the complete lack of mention of sevens. 
Surely a new structure should include summer sevens festivals.
Why would it? It's a completely separate sport.

I suppose that this could be the/an opportunity to align the two properly, should that be desirable. The divergence has led to a situation where the 7s circuit has become formalised to the extent that if a club were to launch a 7s festival from a cold start they might find they're struggling to get decent teams to come because all the good sides already know where they'll be playing when - which means that 7s as the "obvious" fund raising idea for clubs next summer is a probable non starter unless they're already on the circuit.

OTOH (with a lot of work and local research) something could be organised with/between local clubs but it would need the work and local research/liaison doing, which potentially makes it less attractive again.

If we were still in 1973 then you could jack up a quick 7s tournament/s mandated by the RFU as a money spinner and to get some rugby played. I just don't think it's much of an option in 2020/1.

As you say, 7s has become a creature that looks a bit like rugby, and sits under the RFU, but doesn't have much to do with the XV a side game. Now might be as good a time as any/opportunity for a bit of creative destruction to smash the two back together again, but it wouldn't be painless, and I'm not convinced there's much point...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blutarsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 12:50
Originally posted by TigerTitan TigerTitan wrote:

Balancing the books should be easy. Pre-COVID, all clubs had a reasonably accurate idea of what their average gate would be, how many home games they would host and how much they would bring in via advertisement, sponsorship etc.  

The bit in bold is 100% not a given post-covid. How many companies that have struggled through Covid will still want to throw money at sponsorship? Some will, but some won't. 

For clubs that have one main sponsor that provides a lions share of funding, that could be huge if the backer decides to pull out. 

For clubs that rely on sponsorship income from a range of sponsors, the effect of several smaller business pulling out could have a big cumulative effect. 

For clubs that rely heavily on diverse income streams including events and venue hire, a huge amount has been lost already. My club has missed out on a whole summer of letting the club as a wedding reception venue and on income usually gained through turning the back pitches into a campsite for a few weeks. 

Unless a club has a major backer that they know is there to stay, such as Ealing (although is anything certain these days?) then budgeting is very difficult at the moment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clueless like most Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 15:49
You could always get the Dfe to run up an algorithm! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 16:35
The ofqual algorithm gave the result it was told to give, while randomly disadvantaging some pupils - especially for various reasons those in grammar schools, those in improving schools and those who were outperforming their school.

The RFU plan sets out to reduce the number of games players have to play and to reduce travel.
Howeve, for the vast majority of clubs it increases both the number of games scheduled and the distances travelled.

It only reduced travel for the 48 teams in the national leagues. While this means the RFU will not need to pay out as much in travel funding to those clubs, it will need to fund travel for the much larger number of clubs at levels 5 and 6 in their cup games, which will outwiegh the savings. (58 fewer games with antional travel in national 1 - more than 200 extra in the level 5 and 6 cups)

I am not sure the RFU competitions committee can find its elbow with both hands and a map.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neasham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 17:38
Thought the RFU has abandoned travel expenses apart from exceptional circumstances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 18:13
So the level 5 and six teams are expected to travel for cup matches.
At least two away trips at the 72 new level 5 and for the top 16 level 6 clubs anywhere in the country. 
The remaining level 6 clubs get a semi national  knock out and shield.  So a variable number of away trips.

If you do not want to spend your March and April in a coach - then you need to send a comment to the RFU.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 21:44
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

So the level 5 and six teams are expected to travel for cup matches.
At least two away trips at the 72 new level 5 and for the top 16 level 6 clubs anywhere in the country. 
The remaining level 6 clubs get a semi national  knock out and shield.  So a variable number of away trips.

If you do not want to spend your March and April in a coach - then you need to send a comment to the RFU.


Won't happen - expect the majority of away teams in cups with long distances to travel to concede.

Total waste of time - look at the Premier and Championship cups - most teams & supporters hate them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2020 at 08:46
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

So the level 5 and six teams are expected to travel for cup matches.
At least two away trips at the 72 new level 5 and for the top 16 level 6 clubs anywhere in the country. 
The remaining level 6 clubs get a semi national  knock out and shield.  So a variable number of away trips.

If you do not want to spend your March and April in a coach - then you need to send a comment to the RFU.


Won't happen - expect the majority of away teams in cups with long distances to travel to concede.

Total waste of time - look at the Premier and Championship cups - most teams & supporters hate them.

Personally I think cups are great and seeing your community club in a final at Twickenham is a truly unforgettable experience. But they should not be given the same podium as the league as this proposal seems to do. The Premiership and Championship Cups were severely missed opportunities to have one cup involving both leagues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2020 at 12:55
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

So the level 5 and six teams are expected to travel for cup matches.
At least two away trips at the 72 new level 5 and for the top 16 level 6 clubs anywhere in the country. 
The remaining level 6 clubs get a semi national  knock out and shield.  So a variable number of away trips.

If you do not want to spend your March and April in a coach - then you need to send a comment to the RFU.


Won't happen - expect the majority of away teams in cups with long distances to travel to concede.

Total waste of time - look at the Premier and Championship cups - most teams & supporters hate them.


Personally I think cups are great and seeing your community club in a final at Twickenham is a truly unforgettable experience. But they should not be given the same podium as the league as this proposal seems to do. The Premiership and Championship Cups were severely missed opportunities to have one cup involving both leagues.


I agree re joining Premiership and Championship in 1 cup - presumably the reason not to do this is point 3 below?

The last cup finals were not played at Twickenham.

Cups - you either

1) have to travel further (defeats object of regionalisation of leagues)
2) play the same teams in your league again (championship model that no one likes)
3) play teams in your area from several levels (likely to lead to big mismatches and possibly safety issues)

What is to like about this?

Edited by Raider999 - 20 Aug 2020 at 12:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2020 at 13:05
raider, " The last cup finals were not played at Twickenham....."
Yes, none of the 19/20 Finals were played...….at all, you know because of Covid Lockdown.
 
The 18/19 finals were played at HQ.
 
 
Crouch, Bind, Tweet!
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