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Elma Fudd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elma Fudd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 17:08
Originally posted by Cannon Cannon wrote:

Originally posted by oldman oldman wrote:

Gentleman I raise a query re the 'non material benefit' element of the discussion above. For many years older members of a club I know in the midlands have contributed to the air fares of two of their youngsters to spend 6 months in New Zealand playing Rugby and 'growing up'. In return the host club send two of their youngsters to the UK for a season. Jobs are found, usually in a warehouse or labouring and a room with other players. This arrangement has benefited many youngsters over the last 15 - 20 years, both rugby wise and personal growth and development. To continue this immediately rules out the host club of benefiting from RFU grants. A case of unforeseen consequences?

As long as they declare and tick the correct areas of the registration forms they will be not breaching any rules, just as others have said the club will receive no funding from the RFU.

As it has been said before, the restricting of clubs player salaries/ benefits/ compensations is one of the most pointless decisions the RFU have come up with. It WILL mean that clubs will now deceive the RFU in another “Panama Papers” deception.

I may be reading this wrong but if Bill and Bob From Club UK pay for two players to go and spend time in NZ then surely this is a private arrangement and nothing to do with the club payments?

Wouldn't this class as a private gift as they are not being payed for their playing for Club UK. They are being gifted airfare to go an play in NZ, where the rules are different. As long as the players that come over aren't forced by a contract to play for the UK club and are free to go and play for whoever (or not play at all) they want then surely this is just an arrangement between private individuals and could go on as long as they club had no involvement in the arrangements?

Imagine if the players in NZ won a competition in the newspaper for flights 6 months apart and they contacted a friends friend out in UK who privately arranged for them to get interviews for jobs and told them they know a landlord who they could pay out of the money they earn at the jobs they may get upon successfully interviewing and that there is a great rugby club nearby them called club uk and he could introduce them then this wouldn't go against the laws of payment?

To me non material benefit is kit, clubs, free accomodation or flights paid for players incoming etc...

This is for players going out!

I could be completely wrong however!


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Thelazy8 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thelazy8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 17:31
Originally posted by Elma Fudd Elma Fudd wrote:

Originally posted by Cannon Cannon wrote:

Originally posted by oldman oldman wrote:

Gentleman I raise a query re the 'non material benefit' element of the discussion above. For many years older members of a club I know in the midlands have contributed to the air fares of two of their youngsters to spend 6 months in New Zealand playing Rugby and 'growing up'. In return the host club send two of their youngsters to the UK for a season. Jobs are found, usually in a warehouse or labouring and a room with other players. This arrangement has benefited many youngsters over the last 15 - 20 years, both rugby wise and personal growth and development. To continue this immediately rules out the host club of benefiting from RFU grants. A case of unforeseen consequences?

As long as they declare and tick the correct areas of the registration forms they will be not breaching any rules, just as others have said the club will receive no funding from the RFU.

As it has been said before, the restricting of clubs player salaries/ benefits/ compensations is one of the most pointless decisions the RFU have come up with. It WILL mean that clubs will now deceive the RFU in another “Panama Papers” deception.

I may be reading this wrong but if Bill and Bob From Club UK pay for two players to go and spend time in NZ then surely this is a private arrangement and nothing to do with the club payments?

Wouldn't this class as a private gift as they are not being payed for their playing for Club UK. They are being gifted airfare to go an play in NZ, where the rules are different. As long as the players that come over aren't forced by a contract to play for the UK club and are free to go and play for whoever (or not play at all) they want then surely this is just an arrangement between private individuals and could go on as long as they club had no involvement in the arrangements?

Imagine if the players in NZ won a competition in the newspaper for flights 6 months apart and they contacted a friends friend out in UK who privately arranged for them to get interviews for jobs and told them they know a landlord who they could pay out of the money they earn at the jobs they may get upon successfully interviewing and that there is a great rugby club nearby them called club uk and he could introduce them then this wouldn't go against the laws of payment?

To me non material benefit is kit, clubs, free accomodation or flights paid for players incoming etc...

This is for players going out!

I could be completely wrong however!



I think the whole idea of the new rules is to stop clubs using this sort of 'wooley' explanation for players who are brought over to play.

It would be a great shame though, if it affects genuine traditional arrangements designed to provide fantastic opportunities for youngsters and foster relations between clubs across the globe.

That's where policing the cap needs an enforcement body that can allow exceptions for sensible arrangements that can be proven to be for reasons other than gaining promotion. .........But don't ask me how!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir_Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 17:39
2 separate topics here seemed to have got a little confused

Overseas Players
You cannot give an overseas player travelling on a T5 youth mobility visa any material benefit whatsoever. No flights, accommodation, match fee, club membership etc so a London 1 club openly advertising on Facebook for NZ/AUS players with promises of flights and accommodation could ultimately leave them open to the same sanctions faced by Medway a few season ago. Unfortunately payments/free accommodation/flight being given to overseas players is rife throughout level 5, 6 and potentially below with too  many clubs willing break the rules/laws safe in the knowledge the the RFU don't actively police it.

Non Overseas players
My understanding for level 6 from next season is that you can choose to still contract and pay non overseas players but you have to make a declaration and should you choose to pay players, any RFU funding that you may receive will be withdrawn from the following season including any loans/grants and travel expenses but I think international tickets will not be affected.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guildfordblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 18:25
So this begs the question, that if you are in L1S next season and think that a / some team(s) are actively breaking said rules will you / your club inform th RFU or ask for an investigation?
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'Hopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 'Hopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 19:20
Originally posted by Guildfordblue Guildfordblue wrote:

So this begs the question, that if you are in L1S next season and think that a / some team(s) are actively breaking said rules will you / your club inform th RFU or ask for an investigation?

Your need positive proof before there's the slightest chance of any action being taken.
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Gareth View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gareth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 20:06
I wonder which club this is ? LOL
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Cannon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cannon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 21:44
TheLazy8 / SirQ - As we all know it’s happened historically, it’s happening now and it will happen in the future. As I keep saying clubs will find ways to get around it and I suspect agents will be the driving force in discovering loop holes.

GuildfordBlue / Gareth - No I personally wouldn’t name a club as I think this RFU policy is deplorable, if not a restriction of trade. What my club would do may be a different decision. I heard it was ............joking. I don’t know - BUT could it be a wind up of the said agent to get the RFU checking all clubs as their business is being affected?
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Coldwarwarrior View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coldwarwarrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 08:58
Does anyone know what funding clubs get from the RFU and is this the only sanction? Reading the above assuming the club hasn't applied for loans/grants and either doesn't travel far enough or can fund their own travel, the loss of funding may not be significant to a club who can afford to fund overseas players. 
Don’t sweat the petty things, and don’t pet the sweaty things.
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Robb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 09:52
Originally posted by 'Hopper 'Hopper wrote:

Originally posted by Guildfordblue Guildfordblue wrote:

So this begs the question, that if you are in L1S next season and think that a / some team(s) are actively breaking said rules will you / your club inform th RFU or ask for an investigation?

Your need positive proof before there's the slightest chance of any action being taken.

Absolutely. Unless you have concrete proof, the RFU won't care much for allegations based on suspicion alone. Medway got caught because they showed the RFU that they had amateur players signed under semi-pro contracts.
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MikeGC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 10:15
There are certainly clubs in N1W with some fairly loose morals.

You hear "we don't pay" at the pre-match lunch but see the secretary slipping brown envelopes to a few lads in the bar.

You hear "we don't pay" at the pre-match lunch but know that two lads are living in a flat above the club premises with use of a (fairly crap, but...) car

and this is despite the high profile casualties we have had locally with previously "top class" clubs plummeting through the leagues when the cash runs out.
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Cannon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cannon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 10:18
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by 'Hopper 'Hopper wrote:

Originally posted by Guildfordblue Guildfordblue wrote:

So this begs the question, that if you are in L1S next season and think that a / some team(s) are actively breaking said rules will you / your club inform th RFU or ask for an investigation?

Your need positive proof before there's the slightest chance of any action being taken.


Absolutely. Unless you have concrete proof, the RFU won't care much for allegations based on suspicion alone. Medway got caught because they showed the RFU that they had amateur players signed under semi-pro contracts.

From what I could find, all the clubs that have been disciplined because they have “dropped” themselves in it. Whether asking for travel support, player poaching or funding. I suspect the RFUs microscope will only work when the facts are given to them as opposed they go looking.
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Guildfordblue View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guildfordblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 11:38
Originally posted by Cannon Cannon wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by 'Hopper 'Hopper wrote:

Originally posted by Guildfordblue Guildfordblue wrote:

So this begs the question, that if you are in L1S next season and think that a / some team(s) are actively breaking said rules will you / your club inform th RFU or ask for an investigation?

Your need positive proof before there's the slightest chance of any action being taken.


Absolutely. Unless you have concrete proof, the RFU won't care much for allegations based on suspicion alone. Medway got caught because they showed the RFU that they had amateur players signed under semi-pro contracts.

From what I could find, all the clubs that have been disciplined because they have “dropped” themselves in it. Whether asking for travel support, player poaching or funding. I suspect the RFUs microscope will only work when the facts are given to them as opposed they go looking.

A club with a new set of antipodean recruits who happen to be playing Lock, 10, 12/13 and 15 could be worth a look in to though WinkLOL
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Sir_Q View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir_Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 15:46
Originally posted by Coldwarwarrior Coldwarwarrior wrote:


Does anyone know what funding clubs get from the RFU and is this the only sanction? Reading the above assuming the club hasn't applied for loans/grants and either doesn't travel far enough or can fund their own travel, the loss of funding may not be significant to a club who can afford to fund overseas players. 


The loss of funding has nothing to do with overseas players, you cannot give overseas players travelling on a T5 youth mobility visa any form of benefit in kind.

The loss of funding that we are discussing on this thread is where the salary cap is breached, at level 6 and below it is zero therefore any club that pays It players at 6 and below will have funding cut for the following season.

I think we are going to see more secretaries in bars handing out brown envelopes!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coldwarwarrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 19:21
Originally posted by Sir_Q Sir_Q wrote:

Originally posted by Coldwarwarrior Coldwarwarrior wrote:


Does anyone know what funding clubs get from the RFU and is this the only sanction? Reading the above assuming the club hasn't applied for loans/grants and either doesn't travel far enough or can fund their own travel, the loss of funding may not be significant to a club who can afford to fund overseas players. 


The loss of funding has nothing to do with overseas players, you cannot give overseas players travelling on a T5 youth mobility visa any form of benefit in kind.

The loss of funding that we are discussing on this thread is where the salary cap is breached, at level 6 and below it is zero therefore any club that pays It players at 6 and below will have funding cut for the following season.

I think we are going to see more secretaries in bars handing out brown envelopes!

Thanks for the clarification Sir Q ... but the question applies similarily for a salary cap breach - what is (the amount of) funding a club gets from the RFU at Level 6? If the club can afford to pay players would it be concerned if the amount they receive from the RFU is paltry?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 20:24
Coldwarrior - a very good point.

Maybe that is why the RFU is so keen on setting stupid budgetary targets - they know a lot of clubs will ignore them taking the hit on the miserly travel payments they received.

More money for G & T at their meetings
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Cannon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cannon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 07:31
Another question is how long you will lose out on RFU funding if players receive benefits?

I think most clubs (apart from Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey etc) could afford their own travel but losing the ground development funding at the lower levels will be critical.
Rucks and mauls may bust my balls, but whips and chains excite me!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 09:20
Originally posted by Cannon Cannon wrote:

Another question is how long you will lose out on RFU funding if players receive benefits?

I think most clubs (apart from Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey etc) could afford their own travel but losing the ground development funding at the lower levels will be critical.

Indeed though when you get to Level 6, the travel can start getting long and costly. Indeed we have had a East Kent to Hampshire in L1S but my understanding was that the RFU don't fund travel unless it is over 75 miles as the crow flies?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thelazy8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 09:57
Originally posted by Cannon Cannon wrote:

Another question is how long you will lose out on RFU funding if players receive benefits?

I think most clubs (apart from Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey etc) could afford their own travel but losing the ground development funding at the lower levels will be critical.

the RFU 'Funding' will stop the season following an end of season declaration of player payment (or excess payment levels 3-5) and will start again the season after a a reverse end of season declaration.

Another area it will effect is if you have an RFU 'Plastic Paddock'  where you would loose free/reduced rates as the host club.

I have asked (in writing) from our CB if the RFU wish to be informed of transgressions?, if there will be a 'Whistleblowers hotline'? and what will be the policing and enforcement arrangements?. Despite six months and a couple of reminders, still no answers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maroon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 17:58
According to RFU website, Wilmslow beat Driffield 24-21 in the last minute in the N1E v N1W playoff to gain promotion to NP along with Alnwick and Vale of Lune.

In the Y1 v ND1 playoff last weekend, Scarborough had a home walk over over Durham who could not raise a team.

I think N1E will be as below with Penrith being Level Transferred back to N1W.

Morley
Pocklington
Driffield
West Leeds
Morpeth
Cleckheaton
Bridlington
Malton and Norton
Huddersfield Y.M.C.A.
Bradford & Bingley
Percy Park
Consett
York
Scarborough



Edited by Maroon - 12 May 2018 at 17:59
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carlos fandango View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlos fandango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 14:35
How can you not raise a team for a playoff?
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