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N3LSE Run in.

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FEZ ANT PLUCKER View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 11:28
LOOKING LIKE CHAMPIONS AND RUNNERS UP WILL BE SETTLED ON FINAL MATCHDAY.- WHAT DO YOU THINK?

THIS IS THE RUN IN:

            Sutton & Epsom               Wimbledon                  Westcliff

2.3       Westcliff (A)                    Dorking (A)                 Sutton & Epsom (H)
9.3       Guildford (H)                   Brentwood (H)            Tring (A)
23.3     Brentwood (A)                Sidcup (A)                    Bedford Ath (H)
30.3     Wimbledon (A)               Sutton & Epsom (H)     CS Stags (A)
6.4       Tring (H)                         Hertford (A)                  Chingford (H)
13.4     Bedford Ath (A)              Tring (A)                       Dorking (A)

With Sutts 4 points clear of both Wimbledon and Westcliff W/L BP's will be critical and only adds to the mathematical conundrum. We could finish with all 3 teams on the same points, however from a quick glance and early prediction I just give Westcliff the vote for the top spot. The impressive resurgence of Bedford Athletic could have a major say on the outcome. All views welcome.                           


Edited by FEZ ANT PLUCKER - 17 Feb 2019 at 13:05
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FEZ ANT PLUCKER View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEZ ANT PLUCKER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 11:31
I posted this a week or two ago under Week 20 and it didnt get a lot of response. Thought I would submit it as a new post. What are your thoughts particularly after yesterdays results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 11:34
Looking at the table with 4 games to go it appears to be a straight fight between Sutton & Epsom and Wimbledon.

The match between them on the 30th is massive with the victors looking good for promotion.

Edited by Raider999 - 10 Mar 2019 at 11:35
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FEZ ANT PLUCKER View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEZ ANT PLUCKER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 11:59
The 2 week break will be a help to all, depending on any crops yesterday. Whatever the outcome all 3/4 contenders will need to recruit heavily to survive at L4.Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BruceElliott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 15:29
30th decides the favourite... but last day of the season Tring v Wimbledon could be the decider.

Tring very rarely lose at home, and Wimbledon have only just snuck a number of results away this season. If we go into the last weekend with Wimbledon needing a win, I think my money would be on Sutts taking the automatic spot.  

I've sat here for a few minutes and had another look at the table - Wimbledon to win against Sutts on the 30th, but then risk throwing it away on the last day of the season, losing to Tring.  

It'll come down to bonus points over the remaining 4 fixtures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chinese dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 16:11
I'm not sure you can write off Westcliff yet as they appear to have the easiest run in, the Wimbledon v Sutton match will obviously be crucial, but Wimbledon have three tough away fixtures against Sidcup, Hertford and Tring while Sutton need to beat Tring at home and the last match away to Bedford, who have found some good form recently, will also be tough. 
As F.P suggests the free weekend has come at good time for Sutton,  as i'm sure it has for the other contenders and injuries could play a major part in the final outcome. It's genuinely been a good season with every team, with the exception of Shelford, capable of winning games, and again as F.P states any team gaining promotion will need to recruit to survive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rugby70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 20:05
One of the most exciting finishes to this league in many a year and I think Westcliff still have a chance for second place. Really very surprised with the S&E v Guildford result, but as others have also said bar Shelford all the teams in this league can produce results against the form. Really surprised at Brentwood’s demise and Chingford I believe would have had a much better season if they trained twice a week and sorted out their indiscipline. I think Wimbledon will win the league with Westcliff coming second.

On another note we have Guernsey and Rochford Hundred next season, but who do others on this forum think will be joining this league. L1S is looking interesting and whoever comes second will get Colchester at Colchester.
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Robb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 20:49
Plus London Irish Amateur are coming back down too. Whether they actually come into LSE is another matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 08:09
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Plus London Irish Amateur are coming back down too. Whether they actually come into LSE is another matter.

Guildford is further west than Sunbury, so I think they'd be more at risk of a level transfer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 11:16
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Plus London Irish Amateur are coming back down too. Whether they actually come into LSE is another matter.

Guildford is further west than Sunbury, so I think they'd be more at risk of a level transfer.

Ooh, Mr Sinckler won't like that! Cambourne rather than Tunbridge Wells is probably further than Quins will allow him to go.


Edited by Robb - 11 Mar 2019 at 11:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starlord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 08:40
I spent a little time yesterday looking up the 3 contenders for promotion from this league with respect to current "depth" within each club  - 

1. I see that Wimbledon 2s play in "Zoo Div 1" which as you know is an extremely strong division and      looking at their results, they have roughly a 50% win rate, this is against teams one could argue          would beat most (if not all) the teams in this league.

    Whereas both S&E and Westcliff 2's play in leagues significantly lower. So no / very little depth here.

2. I'm not sure how many players have remained at the Dons from last year but reading several              match reports etc, it would seem roughly 50-60%. 
     Therefore the majority of their squad have recent experience of N2 and maybe higher
    
    Does anyone know how many existing players from S&E and Westcliff have played at a higher              league? I am unable to ascertain an estimate.


One could therefore assume that S&E and Westcliff would need to recruit more players to cope with the rigors of Nat2, would you agree that this could be anywhere from 5-10, maybe more?

My question is - how would a club go about recruiting players without paying a match fee, especially asking them to play in N2?

Further, the club's expenses would quadruple (tens of thousands).

So IMHO, the exam question for me is - unless either club has enough income to cover expenses and increase in player's wages - would these 3 clubs want to play in N2?

I'm sure the players would but could the Club afford it?

Interested to hear your thoughts....




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chinese dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chinese dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 09:20
I know that Sutton only currently have two players that have played at National 2 level, but importantly we have a coaching team that has both played and coached at a higher level than National 2 which is just as important. I suspect that should we get promoted we would need to recruit, but that brings it's own problems in that recruiting too many new players, particularly of the journeyman type, could disrupt the existing team spirit and club ethos, it really is a difficult balancing act ensuring any new players buy into what we already have. The other available possibility is that at National 2 level you are able to take on premiership sides academy players on loan which can often be beneficial, and as we aren't a million miles away from Quins and London Irish.
As far as wanting to go up, why not, you can't play competitive sport and not want to win, if we come straight back down as many have in the past so be it, but surely you have to give it a real go, if the players and coaching team are ambitious the club has to match them off the field to generate more cash, starting with charging an entrance fee, something we've avoided doing so far, and there will be some RFU contribution to cover the extended travelling costs.
It's not that long ago that we were relegated to London 2 after not winning a single game all season and bar takings were low, we are now fielding five adults sides, a vets and colts team and the bar is rammed every Saturday night so we're enjoying the ride and long may it continue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dangerous Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 09:39
Going to have to disagree with your point about the Zoo League Starlord. Sidcup played OE's in the Kent Cup Final last year and won (I bang on about it enough, glorious day). The OEs 2s I believe are top of that league this year and were there or there abouts last time, this team was further bolstered by a number of 1st team players. Therefore I think your comment is a little disingenuous to most (if not all) in this league. 

With regards to your question about recruitment I think thats a very valid point/concern. I think the most obvious way for both teams to recruit more players and to remain true to their roots would be to highlight what a great shop window Nat 2 is for further progression with your rugby career. Westcliff would be the highest Essex side by a long way which is bound to attract a few players, and S&E are surrounded by a host of traditionally big clubs, and are bound to pick up local talent who might not be getting the game time they want. Moreover the romantic in me does still believe in the player pulling on the jersey for the love of the game and his/hers club and want to play at the very best level possible, however I respect this may be a very rose tinted view.

I personally hope both S&E and Westcliff pull it off for the underdogs!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir_Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 10:53
Originally posted by chinese dave chinese dave wrote:

 
It's not that long ago that we were relegated to London 2 after not winning a single game all season and bar takings were low, we are now fielding five adults sides, a vets and colts team and the bar is rammed every Saturday night so we're enjoying the ride and long may it continue.

Chines Dave, That is quite some turnaround. What do you think are the major contributors for this upturn in fortunes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starlord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 10:53
I couldn't agree with you more! Any club should want to give it a go...!

I am merely stating my thoughts having looked at the 3 clubs wrt to possible player recruitment and the significant increase in expenses - Please bear in mind that the "assistance" from RFU is minimal so wouldn't rely on that. for example, you only receive assistance when travelling further than a certain mileage, and £25 per head to stay over night.....not much at all!

All 3 clubs I'm sure will  be able to attract players but sadly after pre-season, many players leave for greener" pastures....no romanticism nowadays i'm afraid.

Looking at the Zoo league this morning, Ampthill, Richmond and Cambridge 2's make up the top 3 with OEs closely behind. Having seen both Cambridge and Richmond play this year I can honestly tell you that Cup would NOT beat these two teams...I am certainly not being disingenuous.

If all 3 clubs are able to agree on loan players to cover areas where thin, that would be ideal to supplement the additional players picked over the off season.
Bear in mind these players will only train with the club once a week and as pointed out by CD, by recruiting large numbers this comes with its obvious challenges. 
And in the event a club is relegated the very next season, you then lose all your loan players and new recruits as they prefer to play in the higher leagues.... so then the club is back to square one with possibly a new squad to start all over again etc...Hertford, Southend, Dorking etc etc are a case in point.

Food for thought.


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chinese dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 11:55
Sir Q, without doubt the major contribution has been the quality in coaching, Paul Hodgson who was an ex minis and junior player is at his second spell coaching at the club, he was instrumental in getting us promoted back into London one and then returned this season to work alongside Mike Schmidt who came to us when he left Esher a couple of seasons back. Together they have improved the quality of our existing players and set us up with a proper game plan that has made us difficult to beat.
The other major factor has been behind the scenes where a lot of our volunteers and staff have worked tirelessly in transforming the bar and house and grounds which has made playing at the club a more enjoyable experience, with contributions from all of the senior teams, as well as the amazing support from our ever expanding minis and junior section. #one club
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FEZ ANT PLUCKER View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEZ ANT PLUCKER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 12:55
Originally posted by chinese dave chinese dave wrote:

Sir Q, without doubt the major contribution has been the quality in coaching, Paul Hodgson who was an ex minis and junior player is at his second spell coaching at the club, he was instrumental in getting us promoted back into London one and then returned this season to work alongside Mike Schmidt who came to us when he left Esher a couple of seasons back. Together they have improved the quality of our existing players and set us up with a proper game plan that has made us difficult to beat.
The other major factor has been behind the scenes where a lot of our volunteers and staff have worked tirelessly in transforming the bar and house and grounds which has made playing at the club a more enjoyable experience, with contributions from all of the senior teams, as well as the amazing support from our ever expanding minis and junior section. #one club
Chinois. I agree with your comments as Dorking followed  a similar route when we were promoted just after Bishops Stortford and just before Old E's. Firstly the increased level of expenses is quite substantial and I think I am right in saying we increased our entrance fee to £10 in line with most N2 sides. This has since met a lot of condemnation now that we have returned to our former level. It was however part of the need to sustain ourselves at L4. I know Sutts charge £5 for a programme but not everyone buys one, so you will need to address that income stream if promotion beckons. I have always been surprised that Sutts have not charged an entrance feeConfused
Dorking had a wonderful debut season at L4 finishing 4th or 5th? with not many L4 clubs knowing enough about us. We had a strong team similar to Sutts in that first season but lost a number of our best players who were poached away. Will Crow and Ross Grimstone to name two. Our 2nd season was wrecked with injuries and lack of depth in strength proved our downfall, despite having a few loan players here and there, but by then L4 clubs were informed.

There is no doubt that fundraising was integral to our income stream with all members playing their part, and the social side benefitted the club as a whole. As a rival supporter I do wish Sutts well and hope you make promotion and enjoy the journey. Every club should aspire to this and test the level. It will be fun but your support will need to boost their income on trips to Redruth and Taunton and earn some brownie points at homeWink  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 13:49
£10 !!!!
Is that as well as the membership fee and if so what value do you get for the membership then  ?

As Dorking famously don't pay their players, where does all the money go ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 13:55
Re Wimbledon I think we will need to recruit but hopefully 3 or 4 players and not the wholesale changes that occurred when we last went up to Nat 2 in 2017. That was mainly due to the different registration requirements in Nat 2 re nationality - our 2017 team had a lot of Kiwis etc.
I think we have quite a good set of players now but are still not playing as well as a team as I would like - we had a very odd game against Brentwood on Saturday which was a mix of sublime finishing and continual basic errors.
Who will go up - still seems very difficult to call - our match with S&E will be the decider I expect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clueless like most Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 16:11
Having watched the promoted teams in Nat 2 this year, I think more than 3 or 4 players might be needed. Guernsey have only scored 434 points so far but have let in 832 and this could be near the 1000 mark when the season is done. Without funding, it seems teams may yo-yo. This does not make them bad teams at all. I think it may be the same for Canterbury TJs or Henley if they were to get into and win the playoff for Nat 1 entry. Each league jump is very difficult.
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