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Poll on the RFU &Yorkshire Carnegie - Event Date: 29 Jul 2019 - 30 Aug 2019

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Poll Question: Do you agree with the RFU allowing YC to play in the Championship
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
131 [87.92%]
2 [1.34%]
11 [7.38%]
1 [0.67%]
1 [0.67%]
3 [2.01%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Full Bodied Red Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 22:21
Maybe the anger about the RFU saving YC is also about the alleged £500k from the RFU. Many other northern, well run, prudent clubs are finding their well made plans for 2019/20 season turned upside down because of the threat of losing players so close to the start.
Not quite the same but northern clubs will remember how the RFU "saved" Plymouth at the expense of Wharfedale in National 1 a few years ago.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fenboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 22:56
Rotherham took the RFU shilling to allow Leeds Tykes to remain in the Premiership. 

All the other clubs that have been 'dealt with' by the RFU have been clubs. Visit Headingley. YC appear to be a very bit part player to the Rhinos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote semisonic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 23:28
It's not vitriol and hate at YC, they are the easy target for a lot of people's anger at what they feel is the RFU ruining the game if you're not one of the 13 premiership shareholder clubs.

For me, I still dislike Hartpury more than YC because they both got up and stayed up by being Gloucester 'A' in all but literal name while subsidising their players' wages as coaches / employees of the college.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 08:57
Richard's question is a fair one and I can only answer for myself. I do not hate Yorkshire Carnegie and their appropriation of the Yorkshire name is irrelevant to me but I do see a big difference between their failure and resurrection compared to others that have occurred. I would suggest in other instances of financial failure there was a club still there to save. In Yorkshire Carnegie this is not the case:

1. YC's corporate failure is complete and there seems to me to be no evidence of any semblance of a club remaining.....there were no players left and no coaches left before the new phoenix poached the Hull Ionians DoR . 
2. Accordingly at the end of July the RFU is now financing a start up into what is a largely fully professional league and it is condoning and enabling what is an undeserved and highly improbable venture. Why?
3. I have scrutinised and financed a lot of start ups .....a start up is just about the hardest thing you can ever do in business. Most fail. I do not see any glimmer of hope for this very improbable start up, it is bound to fail.
4. This YC start up has adverse consequences right across rugby: 
- it will affect other northern clubs whose players and coaches are being poached
- it will affect the players it recruits who may well be out of their depth in the professional Championship
- it has affected Richmond who have been denied natural justice
- it will affect the integrity of the Championship as YC will surely be whipping boys
5. The inetgrity and ability of the RFU is again seen to be lacking

For the above reasons I am scathing and highly critical of the RFU's actions. I blame the RFU more than I blame those behind this YC phoenix . 

The RFU is failing in all sorts of ways including financially. It has sought to address its failings by squeezing and pressurising clubs at level 3 and below and now it has taken actions to toss away at least £500k on a venture which is bound to fail and which  will negatively affect those northern clubs at level 3 and 4 whose players will be poached by this doomed venture.

The RFU's behaviour is reckless/misguided and a slap in the face to rugby at levels 3 and below. In condoning and enabling this farce the RFU has brought itself further into disrepute. 


Edited by Big Eddie - 30 Jul 2019 at 08:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote High Heidjin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:06
Originally posted by semisonic semisonic wrote:

For me, I still dislike Hartpury more than YC because they both got up and stayed up by being Gloucester 'A' in all but literal name while subsidising their players' wages as coaches / employees of the college.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:08
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Richard's question is a fair one and I can only answer for myself. I do not hate Yorkshire Carnegie and their appropriation of the Yorkshire name is irrelevant to me but I do see a big difference between their failure and resurrection compared to others that have occurred. I would suggest in other instances of financial failure there was a club still there to save. In Yorkshire Carnegie this is not the case:

1. YC's corporate failure is complete and there seems to me to be no evidence of any semblance of a club remaining.....there were no players left and no coaches left before the new phoenix poached the Hull Ionians DoR . 
2. Accordingly at the end of July the RFU is now financing a start up into what is a largely fully professional league and it is condoning and enabling what is an undeserved and highly improbable venture. Why?
3. I have scrutinised and financed a lot of start ups .....a start up is just about the hardest thing you can ever do in business. Most fail. I do not see any glimmer of hope for this very improbable start up, it is bound to fail.
4. This YC start up has adverse consequences right across rugby: 
- it will affect other northern clubs whose players and coaches are being poached
- it will affect the players it recruits who may well be out of their depth in the professional Championship
- it has affected Richmond who have been denied natural justice
- it will affect the integrity of the Championship as YC will surely be whipping boys
5. The inetgrity and ability of the RFU is again seen to be lacking

For the above reasons I am scathing and highly critical of the RFU's actions. I blame the RFU more than I blame those behind this YC phoenix . 

The RFU is failing in all sorts of ways including financially. It has sought to address its failings by squeezing and pressurising clubs at level 3 and below and now it has taken actions to toss away at least £500k on a venture which is bound to fail and which  will negatively affect those northern clubs at level 3 and 4 whose players will be poached by this doomed venture.

The RFU's behaviour is reckless/misguided and a slap in the face to rugby at levels 3 and below. In condoning and enabling this farce the RFU has brought itself further into disrepute. 

To be fair a very sensibly weighted post and I do look to the RFU as the primary cause of this mess (I think they are playing at Ostriches) - although re branding to "Yorkshire" did irk me somewhat but that is because of where I reside methinks....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greeneyed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:16
Richard
If you think that the opprobrium heaped on YC is unprecedented you must have forgotten the outrage at the scandal of Plymouth Albion, who under the Regulations at the time of the blessed RFU were allowed to continue, paying off their 'rugby debts' and allowing their non-rugby creditors to go hang.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:30
Again BE I totally agree with your post . . what I worry about most is the implications to other clubs.

As I have posted on Nat 1 thread, what if Rotherham, DMP or Wharfedale have set budgets and recruitment to challenge in their respective leagues and then they lose key players now, and subsequently dont realise their ambitions . . this has huge knock on effect for sponsors and loyal supporters of those clubs. Will the RFU support them financially.

If the RFU had been doing it job it would have stopped this farce long ago, YC failed to publish its 2018 accounts and that should have been a trigger. Their biggest sponsor Excercise 4 Less was losing big money and was obviously not going to be able to keep pumping big money into the club, the Directors would have been aware of this for  along time! There has been a catalogue of mis management by the Board and the RFU. I think this is why everyone is so irate. Players and suppliers have been badly affected and now the ripples will affect lots of other innocent clubs who run responsible business models.

YC bought their way out of definite relegation with money they knew they would never have and should face the consequences. Doncaster Knights show the way to develop a rugby club, investing in excellent facilities for players, supporters and sponsors . . and owning them!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:45
I didn't realise Yorkshire Carnegie hadn't filed their 2018 accounts, you are right Runitback that was a glaring warning sign. I think there have been a number of posts answering Richard's question as to why the outrage.

However although  I think Richard is right to try end elicit other points of view it seems pretty clear that Yorkshire Carnegie and the RFU have very few defenders.

Perhaps the RFU will look at Rolling Maul and realise the strength of feeling against their actions, or perhaps no one at the RFU cares


Edited by Big Eddie - 30 Jul 2019 at 09:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 11:50
From my experience with the NCA and people at the RFU, I am pretty sure the RFU do care. They are having to operate within the rules that have been developed and which YC have been very clever at using for their benefit. People have mentioned Haywards Heath, East Grinstead, Rugby and others as Clubs that have folded but in every case mentioned (and Bees, the latest), it was the Club that took the decision to withdraw. YC could have done that but haven't and that is the problem.

Remember also, that the the RFU is constrained by an agreement with Premiership Rugby which was negotiated by previous Directors and which cannot be amended from year to year, thus all cuts to budgets fall on Level 3 and below. Those cuts are unacceptable but even more so is the ring-fencing of money for the Premiership.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fat Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:11
With the possible intent of trying to introduce some humour into this intense discussion I suggest that Ampthill's connections might view a weak Leedshire team as an unexpected opportunity to consolidate in 2019/20 and build for season 2020/21...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:17
Originally posted by Fat Albert Fat Albert wrote:

With the possible intent of trying to introduce some humour into this intense discussion I suggest that Ampthill's connections might view a weak Leedshire team as an unexpected opportunity to consolidate in 2019/20 and build for season 2020/21...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:31
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

From my experience with the NCA and people at the RFU, I am pretty sure the RFU do care. They are having to operate within the rules that have been developed and which YC have been very clever at using for their benefit. People have mentioned Haywards Heath, East Grinstead, Rugby and others as Clubs that have folded but in every case mentioned (and Bees, the latest), it was the Club that took the decision to withdraw. YC could have done that but haven't and that is the problem.


I can understand your point Halliford but doesn't the RFU have to scrutinise and approve YC's business plan? I am obviously not privy to the YC business plan but I cannot see how in the time available 
YC can assemble a squad of say 25 players capable of safely playing at level 2 without poaching players from other northern clubs.

Other posters have said that normally there are release clauses in a standard players contract which allows the player to move to a higher ranked club. This maybe the case and may provide the opportunity for YC to legally poach such players but it doesn't make it right and it will have a detrimental effect on such players' existing clubs.

YC has to find circa 25 players capable of playing at level 2 from somewhere by the start of the season. If they are to cast their net wider than the north they will need to spend significantly more than if they recruit from northern clubs.

Perhaps Sale Sharks are going to supply say 10 players.....that is still another 15 to find. What is the point this will not be a proper rugby club just a collection of players.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:33
It is the precedent the RFU have set

A.N.Other club can now see that you can risk all on taking on journeymen players to achieve safety in the knowledge that the worst comes to the worst and you bankrupt yourself doing it there is an "easy" way out where you still get your RFU money, the main shareholder takes a theoretical hit (they usually dont expect their money back anyway) and it is the numerous small local "non rugby" creditors who will take the hit

I would have felt a bit better if the RFU had put out a statement saying something to the effect of "YC still in championship as they are compliant the current rules as written - however we have formed a working party to look at how we amend the regs to ensure this can not happen again as it is obviously not a preferred outcome and manifestly unfair on other clubs who have striven to live within their means"


Edited by Dad - 30 Jul 2019 at 12:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:45
I just don't understand why this is happening. YC didn't just get into financial trouble it essentially ceased to exist as a Championship club. No coach and no players.

Why is there any effort at all to resurrect it? 
What will change in this reincarnation?

Is the phoenix going to attract enough new supporters to make Yorkshire Carnegie viable?
Is the new Yorkshire Carnegie going to provide an improved rugby union focus in Yorkshire and the North?
Is the new Yorkshire Carnegie going to benefit the Championship?
Is the new Yorkshire Carnegie at Level 2 going to benefit other Yorkshire and Northern rugby union clubs?

If anyone can explain the Why to me I would like to understand because to me this just looks like absolute folly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:04
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

but doesn't the RFU have to scrutinise and approve YC's business plan? 

If the RFU started to scrutinise any clubs business plans then the game would lose clubs left, right and centre.   

The RFU are a body there to run the game, not oversee financial proprietary of individual clubs - this should be done by the board/members/shareholders and the relevant legal authorities.

The RFU role is encourage participation in the game which is what they are doing by allowing YC to continue.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:21
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

but doesn't the RFU have to scrutinise and approve YC's business plan? 

If the RFU started to scrutinise any clubs business plans then the game would lose clubs left, right and centre.   

The RFU are a body there to run the game, not oversee financial proprietary of individual clubs - this should be done by the board/members/shareholders and the relevant legal authorities.

The RFU role is encourage participation in the game which is what they are doing by allowing YC to continue.

I wasn't suggesting that the RFU should be scrutinising all clubs business plans but I did think that this was a fundamental reqmnt for a club to retain its status after an insolvency event. A CVA is an insolvency event
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:29
If it isnt then it should be put into the regs that as well as paying off all rugby debts a business plan signed off by a regulated auditor ought to be in place showing how the club will survive the following season without recourse to further insolvency events before a club is allowed to continue in their current league.

If a club can find an auditor willing to put their own company on the line to sign it off that is good enough for me - the RFU are not accountants (that much is obvious from looking at their own business attempts)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:34
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

but doesn't the RFU have to scrutinise and approve YC's business plan? 
The RFU role is encourage participation in the game which is what they are doing by allowing YC to continue.

I understand that this is part of the RFU's role but from what I know I do not believe that allowing Yorkshire Carnegie to continue in the Chapionship will encourage participation in the game. My concerns on this point are as follows:

1. YC continuing in the Championship with RFU support is likely to have a negative impact on other northern level 3 and level 4 clubs
2. If YC get pummelled each week this is going to turn off participation in Yorkshire and elsewhere
3. If a YC player gets badly injured becasue he is not physically equipped to play at level 2 it will be hugely negative regarding encouraging participation.
4. The horlicks that the RFU is making of rugby is very negative to continued participation by the large and essential volunteer force that runs the game below Level 2. The decision regarding YC continuing in the Championship seems to me to be very counter productive indeed 

To be honest I cannot see in what possible way allowing YC to continue in the Championship is going to encourage participation in the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:36
Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

If it isnt then it should be put into the regs that as well as paying off all rugby debts a business plan signed off by a regulated auditor ought to be in place showing how the club will survive the following season without recourse to further insolvency events before a club is allowed to continue in their current league.

If a club can find an auditor willing to put their own company on the line to sign it off that is good enough for me - the RFU are not accountants (that much is obvious from looking at their own business attempts)



You overlook the fact that a club can be solvent at one date, then their backer dies/withdraws etc the next day for many reasons and the club suffers. You can't account for this.

Sometimes it is not anyone's fault. Sometimes it is contrived.

Should there be a difference?

What is the solution? Points deduction, RFU monies withheld, demotion to the bottom of the pyramid?

Should the punishment be across the board or on a case by case basis?

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