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Poll on the RFU &Yorkshire Carnegie - Event Date: 29 Jul 2019 - 30 Aug 2019

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Poll Question: Do you agree with the RFU allowing YC to play in the Championship
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
131 [87.92%]
2 [1.34%]
11 [7.38%]
1 [0.67%]
1 [0.67%]
3 [2.01%]
You can not vote in this poll

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greeneyed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greeneyed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:46
I think the insolvency Regulation may have been rewritten since Plymouth's very clever exploitation of the loophole of not having to pay 'non-rugby' creditors. By the way, if I had been one of those, I'd have been suing the directors and the RFU for fraudulent preference, one of the penalties for which in unlimited personal liability!
 
As for insolvency being sudden, although there could be the odd example, insolvencies develop over a length of time, and the directors should have been taking legal advice over the situation long before they called time.
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Pappashanga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:48
The essence of the problem is not that YC became insolvent, but that knowing they were, they spent a lot of money on players, knowing they couldn't pay them. Now they benefit from the activities of those players. The immorality of it is breathtaking.
As for the rest of it, I'm not qualified to express an opinion.

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Big Eddie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:55
I am qualified to express an opinion and greeneyed is spot on and so are you pappashanga!

Edited by Big Eddie - 30 Jul 2019 at 13:55
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fenboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fenboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:00
Wouldn't it just make things simpler if companies/organisations/individuals sponsoring a player/club put there money in up front? Or is that too simplistic?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backrowb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:04
But YC committed money (player contracts) for next season that they didn't have
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:20
All clubs in levels 1-4 need to present audited accounts. (reg 5.1.3)

Clubs in level 2 and those in level 3 seeking promotion need to supply budgets for the forthcoming season and twice a year their current position against that budget.  (reg 5.2.1).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:33
Directors of a company have equal responsibility for its oversight regardless of whether they call themselves non executive directors or are not operational directors. 

The directors should be monitoring the company's financial position regularly and should not commit the company to expenditure that they do not reasonably believe the company can pay as such expenditure falls due.

When a company is close to the financial edge the directors should be regularly (often daily and weekly) forecasting cash flows with real accuracy and if they commit to expenditure that they cannot reasonably expect to be paid as such expenditure falls due to be paid, they could be guilty of wrongful trading and end up being personally liable for any such wrongful expenditure.

Such judgements are always reviewed in hindsight by a liquidator and directors have to be extraordinary careful as to what they commit to when they are teetering on insolvency. 

In the case of Yorkshire Carnegie if I had been a director of that company I would have wanted legally binding assurances from the major sponsors (backed up by clear evidence of an ability to provide such funding on a timely basis) before I would have committed Yorkshire Carngeie to contracts that they couldn't fulfill. Perhaps the directors did get such effective formal assurances but the circumstances suggest that if they did they were ineffective.

The Directors of YC could have been personally liable for such contracts if creditors had successsfully pursued them but the CVA will now in all likelihood have washed this possibility away. 

I don't know but this may have been the motivation for the CVA rather than an Administration because through the CVA the creditors will have formally accepted their 15p in the £ (or  whatever the actual payout was) rather than a situation under an Administration where they may possibly have received the same amount from the Administration but could have still had the option of pursuing a legal redress against the Directors if they thought such a case had merit.

Being a director of a limited company has real responsibilities and real risks attaching to it. If you are not vigilant you can end up being personally liable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:55
It maybe the insolvency practitioners suggested to all that a CVA allowed some value to stay in the club and thus a possibility of some money back whilst a full insolvency would remove all value form the company and thus less monies to disperse

My point was that any club entering an insolvency type event should at that point to continue in the leagues have to provide a fwd business plan signed off by a professional before being allowed to remain at the same level - the RFU are not qualified to tell so make an accountant with professional indemnity insurance do the sign off so it can be as much as possible assured correct
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Joy of (Level) 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 16:10
A Rhubarb’s muddle.

The going concern note (though standard in cases like this) always strikes me as pure smoke and mirrors. It might also give the RFU/directors something to hide behind. Out of date of course, even allowing for the minimum 12 month consideration period.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02618121/filing-history

Edited by The Joy of (Level) 7 - 30 Jul 2019 at 16:46
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TigerTitan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TigerTitan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 16:44
brexit is bringing the economy to its knees! leeds first of many 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 17:59
Originally posted by TigerTitan TigerTitan wrote:

brexit is bringing the economy to its knees! leeds first of many 


Another quality comment from TT!

It strikes me that if YC had been at any level below the Championship they would no longer exist.

BE has made a number of considered and valid points over several threads.

Edited by Raider999 - 30 Jul 2019 at 18:01
RAID ON
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greenpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 18:12
no one from the rfu will give a toss about community clubs  and  no one will speak out  in fear of missing their  jollys to japan  it wouldnt supprise me if those worthless pieces of s--t   running this sport havn,t    already             booked any remaining  carnegie  management  on the flight  with them 

Edited by greenpower - 30 Jul 2019 at 19:03
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BlackCountryMan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackCountryMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 18:50
I remember working out once that the average score for poor Manchester FC across the season when they crashed out of the Championship was 88-3. That is currently the score on Big Eddie’s poll. Must be a meaning in that somewhere.
Trying to figure it all out
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 21:33
You remembered slightly.
In National 1, no Championship then, the averaged 14-40. Indeed they won two games. Sedgley Park and Newbury
It was the season in National 2 they averaged 3-88.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geralltrugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 22:06
There was plenty of vitriol directed towards LW Richard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 22:36
Let's keep on topic. I've deleted a number of posts. If you see a off topic post report it and will be looked at, please do not feed the trolls. 
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No 7 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 23:40
Originally posted by The Joy of (Level) 7 The Joy of (Level) 7 wrote:

A Rhubarb’s muddle.

The going concern note (though standard in cases like this) always strikes me as pure smoke and mirrors. It might also give the RFU/directors something to hide behind. Out of date of course, even allowing for the minimum 12 month consideration period.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02618121/filing-history



There are 47 resignations and 5 retained 'directors'
Still in their post.

Sir Ian McGeech resigned . I am suprised that he so quiet in the media.

Edited by No 7 - 30 Jul 2019 at 23:41
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Big Eddie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2019 at 15:27
There have been exactly 100 responses to this poll which is not a huge number but I believe it is probably likely to be a fair reflection of the views held by rugby people generally.

96% of  responders do not agree with the RFU's decision to allow YC to stay in the Championship although 10% whilst not agreeing with the decision do believe that the RFU was acting either in the interests of the game at large or the RFU's decision was understandable for other reasons

4% of responders believe that the RFU is right to allow YC to remain in the Championship and half of these ( i.e. 2) believe that the RFU has done absolutely the right thing.

I wonder where those 2 responders are from?




Edited by Big Eddie - 31 Jul 2019 at 18:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fat Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2019 at 15:53
Championship Rugby's Twitter account has posted a new tweet, presumably Yorkshire Carnegie's confirmed team for 2019/20, like everything else regarding YC it's a bit lacking in detail Wink


a Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
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greeneyed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greeneyed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 09:01
It is probably worth adding to Big Eddie's fine summary of the role and responsibilities of a Director that the definition of 'Director' in the context of a rugby club (community club or otherwise) extends to all committee members and those in any managerial position. You have been warned!
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