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England V Wales TMO- Try or No Try

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Printed Date: 16 Oct 2018 at 17:23
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Topic: England V Wales TMO- Try or No Try
Posted By: Shamrose
Subject: England V Wales TMO- Try or No Try
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 10:28
After becoming tired of the so called rugby pundits pontificating on this I thought I would put this to the forum
Law says
 
A try is scored "by pressing down on the ball with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player's body from waist to neck".
 
To my mind there was no pressing down on the ball by Wales, so Watson was the first person to touch it down.
 
Correct decision IMHO  
 



Replies:
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 10:54
Originally posted by Shamrose Shamrose wrote:

 

Correct decision IMHO  
 

Unless you are blind............it was a try every time I look at it........haven't heard one commentator from either country saying it wasn't a try.........there is absolutely no argument about it. Would Wales have won if that score had been given.......probably not England were much superior in the kicking contest ..........but perhaps their 'bottle' could have gone


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 11:04
I think that if the boot were on the other foot, and it was England who had a potential try ruled out, then every England fan would have been up in arms, and Uncle Eddie would have thrown his toys out of the pram big time.  Would it have changed the outcome?  No.  Did England deserve to win?  Absolutely, yes.

I think it's a shame that it's distracted a lot of attention away from the fact that it was a cracking game between two teams who were actually pretty well-matched.  The Ford-Farrell axis made the difference for me - two players with very similar attributes and skillsets who not only see the opportunities opening up but have the ability to exploit them.  I don't think anyone seriously expected Wales to win given England's form under Eddie Jones, but I think we can take a hell of a lot of positives from the game.



Posted By: MikeGC
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 16:55
I thought it was a try.
I also thought Cueto scored in 2007 but when the decision is in the hands of a TMO you have to accept it


Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 16:56
Well new footage apparently shows the Welsh winger knocked on do no try.


Posted By: tulip
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 17:27
Jeremy Guscott says it did touch the Welsh wingers fingers.
Watching the footage I think he is correct but I think it touched
His fingers and then his knee so not a knock on. I think.
Anyway It happened in 1st half and I think England are masters of
doing what they have to do to win.


Posted By: Friendly prop
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 17:30
Originally posted by KnightsBoy KnightsBoy wrote:

Well new footage apparently shows the Welsh winger knocked on do no try.
Quite right KB in slow motion it clearly shows Stef Evans fingers move as he makes contact with the ball that hits his KNEE. So grounding is not relevant.

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"Animo concipere non possum quo palto hoc pervease exeat."


Posted By: Exiled_Scots
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 17:42
Originally posted by Friendly prop Friendly prop wrote:

Originally posted by KnightsBoy KnightsBoy wrote:

Well new footage apparently shows the Welsh winger knocked on do no try.
Quite right KB in slow motion it clearly shows Stef Evans fingers move as he makes contact with the ball that hits his KNEE. So grounding is not relevant.


How far back in play does the TMO go in reviewing the build up to any disputed try. In most tries the TMO could go back and identify an offence in the lead up to a try which the referee missed in real time. The key here is the TMO was tasked to review the contested touching down of the ball. He clearly did not look at it frame by frame, as otherwise he would have seen that the Welsh player touched down the ball first.

It’s all immaterial now and we all know that match officials get things wrong in the game, which then influences the outcome of games. International matches are no different and the TMO got it wrong on this occasion and England benefited. The TMO did not mention anything about the knock on by Evans in his deliberations.

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Watch Out - The Scottish Phoenix Club is on the Up!!

Seven down one to go


Posted By: tulip
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 17:47
He did ask the TMO to check first that the ball came off wingers knee


Posted By: Exiled_Scots
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 18:04
So the TMO got it doubly wrong then? Brings into doubt the proficency of TMO’s if they can get things that badly wrong.

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Watch Out - The Scottish Phoenix Club is on the Up!!

Seven down one to go


Posted By: carlos fandango
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 18:25
Just goes to show you can't use a 2d tv screen to decide on 3d action. TMO should only be used for line judgements where it's reasonably clear. Might make refs a bit less reliant on the all seeing eye.

Looks to me like the ball rolls away from his grasp as he's trying to touch it down but everyone bar England fans will call me biased


Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 18:49
I think the TMO is here to stay, but it will only ever reduce the number of wrong try awards, not eliminate them.

The 'double-doubt' about this incident probably prompted the ref to ask the 'yes/no?' rather than 'any reason why I can't?' question - if it had been the latter, the TMO may have ruled there was insufficient evidence to deny the try.

Surprising how many people, including paid pundits, referred to the issue of 'downward pressure' on the ball when this is no longer part of the Law 8, just the word 'grounding', which appears not to be defined (well not in the 2018 laws on the World Rugby site anyway).

Shane Williams and Peter Jackson both took up the 'we wuz robbed' theme in The Rugby Paper. Jackson pointed out that 7 points went begging and Wales lost by 6, but it was at most 4 points that 'went begging', as a penalty was awarded and converted immediately after the 'no try' verdict. I realise this may have changed the dynamic of the latter stages, if it had been 12-7 (or 12-5) instead of 12-3, but that's conjecture. Jackson also harked back to a disallowed JJ Williams try in 1974 at Twickers which 'happened, by almost eerie coincidence, in the same area in front of the North Stand', which doesn't help establish him as a reliable witness (it was the South Stand on Saturday). He also referred in another article, to the Andy Haden dive in 1978, which I estimate is approximately the 1,374th time he's brought that up... (I can feel a 40th anniversary lament coming up!)


Posted By: Exiled_Scots
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 19:02
England clearly benefited from the TMO decision, which went in their favour on Saturday.

I am also sure that England supporters when a TMO decision, which at sometime will surely go against them and influences the outcome of a game they lose, will be gracious enough not to enter into the “we wiz robbed”theme.

Somehow I doubt that very much.

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Watch Out - The Scottish Phoenix Club is on the Up!!

Seven down one to go


Posted By: OldExile
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 19:41
Originally posted by Exiled_Scots Exiled_Scots wrote:

England clearly benefited from the TMO decision, which went in their favour on Saturday.

I am also sure that England supporters when a TMO decision, which at sometime will surely go against them and influences the outcome of a game they lose, will be gracious enough not to enter into the “we wiz robbed”theme.

Somehow I doubt that very much.


If not the supporters, then EJ certainly.   

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Mad Jocks & Englishmen go out in the mid-day sun


Posted By: Alderman
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 19:51
As a neutral, it seemed to me that if faint finger touches counted, the ball was knocked on well before the try line


Posted By: tulip
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 19:58
Originally posted by Alderman Alderman wrote:

As a neutral, it seemed to me that if faint finger touches counted, the ball was knocked on well before the try line

I'm not totally up with laws now but when I watched, it faintly touched his finger..Then hit his knee and went forward.
Is that a knock on?


Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 22:13
The ref asked the TMO. The TOM said no.
It has taken an age to get RU to use TMO's to stop the type of decision that cost JJ a try in 1974 and a Welsh win against Haden's All Blacks.
Should we go back to that?

Sometimes I wonder if the Welsh enjoy the debate after being 'robbed' more than they would if they had won.

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All Knwoing All Seeing


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 14:14
Oh dear...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43046791" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43046791

[EDIT] Initially the article just said that Rob Howley reported that they'd had a phone call with Alain Rolland.  Since then, it's been updated to say that World Rugby have confirmed all of the details.  Particularly interesting that they haven't taken the opportunity to say 'but there was a knock-on in the build-up, so the whole conversation is irrelevant anyway'.


Posted By: Exiled_Scots
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 15:29
Good that World Rugby have acknowledged the significant errors made by the TMO and if there is a positive to come out of this, World Rugby have now enteried the 21st century, rather than remaining in the 19th century and no longer live in a situation where match officials are the “untouchables”.

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Watch Out - The Scottish Phoenix Club is on the Up!!

Seven down one to go


Posted By: tulip
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 17:44
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Oh dear...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43046791" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43046791

[EDIT] Initially the article just said that Rob Howley reported that they'd had a phone call with Alain Rolland.  Since then, it's been updated to say that World Rugby have confirmed all of the details.  Particularly interesting that they haven't taken the opportunity to say 'but there was a knock-on in the build-up, so the whole conversation is irrelevant anyway'.



It touches his hand and then his knee so I don't think that is a knock on.


Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 17:45
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Oh dear...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43046791" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43046791

[EDIT] Initially the article just said that Rob Howley reported that they'd had a phone call with Alain Rolland.  Since then, it's been updated to say that World Rugby have confirmed all of the details.  Particularly interesting that they haven't taken the opportunity to say 'but there was a knock-on in the build-up, so the whole conversation is irrelevant anyway'.



If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?

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All Knwoing All Seeing


Posted By: OldExile
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 17:59
Rolland was the referee. Stuart Dickinson was the TMO.

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Mad Jocks & Englishmen go out in the mid-day sun


Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 18:26
Can a Ref on this forum comment the possible knock-on.

Player tries to catch ball, ball brushes the finger (so contact is made) and then strikes the knee and goes forward.  I'm assuming it went back off the finger for this discussion.

My opinion - you see these given as knock-on all of the time when a player tries to catch the ball and it goes through his arms and then strikes some part of his leg.

Edit:  Just looked at the footage and if it did hit his hand then it went forward off the hand so no try.

Still be nice to get clarification on my original scenario.


Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 19:00
It was not a try, the ref said so


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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."


Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 19:01
Ref didnt give so no try, lets move on.


Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 21:24
Not sure why the last two posters have tried to shut down the debate, which I've found interesting, albeit that there's some frustration for all concerned - the officials, because they effed up, England, because our win's been tainted and we can't prove that we would have won anyway, and Wales for obvious reasons.

While I don't want this to be mentioned repeatedly for 40 years, like Haden's dive, I don't see what's wrong in continuing the discussion on the following Tuesday. If you want to move on, feel free to move on...


Posted By: OldExile
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 21:52
Sort of agree Islander. IIRC the referee asked for both the grounding and the possible knock on to be reviewed. If again I remember rightly, both were. Conclusion off Knee therefore no knock on, touch down by England therefore no try.

I also believe the questions by the referee to the TMO were therefore correct. If the TMO was incompetent in his review, that is worrying, he had the full benefit of a frame by frame replay (correct me if I am wrong), so how he could get not one, but both calls wrong......

Perhaps I was watching a different game, wouldn’t be the first time.

Also like you, I hope this does not add another chip, which shoulder is bearing the greater burden.

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Mad Jocks & Englishmen go out in the mid-day sun


Posted By: donnyladinsheffield
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 22:40
I am not sure he did have the benefit of frame by frame.  Whether he could of (channeling my inner Phil Neville) is another matter.  As I recall it he made his decsion fairly quickly. I think we are shown what he is looking at and at the time he made the decsion it hadn't been clear to me that Anscombe still had contact with the ball when it made contact with the ground (Watson clearly did). So I could understand the decision at that point (especially as the question was 'try or no try' so he would have needed to see a clear grounding).  However on further views I think he probably did still have contact (and a photo I have seen confirms it but although it was not stated I think that was from a photographer not a TV still).

What seemed odd to me was the quality of the replay.  I am sure other sports have better definition replays and do frame by frame (some call it rock and roll going back between two frames).

So in my view it should have been given had the TMO taken more time.  Whilst i am sure we all do not want interminable replays where it is clear one way I would have thought he could have looked at this one a bit closer.  Have not seen the knock on but in answer to the question the definition in the laws of a knock on is 'Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Nothing there or in law 11 about an intervening knee or other non arm/hand body part stopping it being a knock on.  Indeed losing possession backwards from hand but hitting another body part to then go forward and hit the ground/opponant would be a knock on under this definition.  It is only hitting or being hit that has to ne off the hand or arm.

Strangely not many Welsh complained when the TMO got it wrong against Scotland and wrongly awarded the bonus point try despite the clear forward pass Wink

And just to prove we English can have our we woz robbed moments I agree the Cueto try should have been given.  The question was whether he was in touch so there should have been clear evidence he was to not allow the try.  I d not think there was clear evidence he was just as there was no clear evidence he was not.  Stuart Dickinson reffed Donny v Leeds not long after that and I was going to find him in the bar afterwards and ask what test he applied but he reffed so well in that game I decided against itTongue


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Lord have mercy on me; keep me away from Leeds: I've been before; it's not what I'm looking for


Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 09:14
Respect for the officials is officially dead, the game really is turning into a sad reflection of what used to be a good game to both play and watch


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 09:40
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

 If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?

Ah, but don't forget that it was Alain Rolland who cost Wales the World Cup in 2011 Wink


Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 12:38
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

 If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?

Ah, but don't forget that it was Alain Rolland who cost Wales the World Cup in 2011 Wink
 
I agree. Rolland has history but throughout his career he never gave England a thing and, we don't need to give the Welsh any more reason to feel like the poor little working class nation who was robbed! 


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All Knwoing All Seeing


Posted By: Exiled_Scots
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 13:32
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

 If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?


Ah, but don't forget that it was Alain Rolland who cost Wales the World Cup in 2011 Wink

 
I agree. Rolland has history but throughout his career he never gave England a thing and, we don't need to give the Welsh any more reason to feel like the poor little working class nation who was robbed! 


Now now Sid - no need to try and stereotype a nation. It’s a bit like saying that the English are all arrogant and above everyone else. We all however know that is not true.

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Watch Out - The Scottish Phoenix Club is on the Up!!

Seven down one to go


Posted By: Donnyknightsfan
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 15:41
I have to say when I watched it I thought it was a try but this whole carry on is a bit silly, people should move on.


Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 16:13
Has anyone ever watched a match where they agreed with every decision ?

When it happened i thought "knock on but grounded" so was listening for what question sir asked the TMO - he did ask about whether a knee and grounding so I was expecting him to look at grounding and say "yes grounded but from a knock on so no try back for the penalty". He came to the same final effect off a different decision so in my view all came out in the wash.

Would we be having the same conversation if it was given form the knock on - who knows but Sir said "no try" so "no try", I mean you'll never catch me querying a refs decision on the pitch Embarrassed


Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 16:24
Originally posted by Exiled_Scots Exiled_Scots wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

 If Alain Rolland had been the TMO it would definitely have been a try, if only because it was against England.
Why should Rolland feel he needs to comment? Just adding fuel to the Welsh fire. Pointless.

p.s. Wasn't it Rolland who did not allow Cueto's try in the 2007 World Cup Final?


Ah, but don't forget that it was Alain Rolland who cost Wales the World Cup in 2011 Wink

 
I agree. Rolland has history but throughout his career he never gave England a thing and, we don't need to give the Welsh any more reason to feel like the poor little working class nation who was robbed! 


Now now Sid - no need to try and stereotype a nation. It’s a bit like saying that the English are all arrogant and above everyone else. We all however know that is not true.


Not my intention ES,
We aĺl know that most of it is media driven. However, I would like to see the 'arrogant and above everyone else' point argued in some of the Northern Rugby Clubs in England.

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All Knwoing All Seeing


Posted By: Exiled_Scots
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 20:44
Sid - you described Wales as a “poor little working class nation”, so clearly you have no idea what your intentions are 😊

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Watch Out - The Scottish Phoenix Club is on the Up!!

Seven down one to go


Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 22:07
ES,
It was not my intention to stereotype a nation, just having a go at those who perpetuate the idea of 'poor little Wales etc.
Just like I would never say that 'all' Scots fail to live up to expectations.


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All Knwoing All Seeing



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