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Disciplinary Matters

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Forum Name: The Championship
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Printed Date: 21 Jan 2019 at 18:41
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Topic: Disciplinary Matters
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Subject: Disciplinary Matters
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2018 at 16:01
http://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/tj-ioane-to-face-disciplinary-panel/" rel="nofollow - https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/tj-ioane-to-face-disciplinary-panel/

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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.



Replies:
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2018 at 14:55

RFU Disciplinary: TJ Ioane, London Irish 

TJ Ioane of London Irish appeared before an independent disciplinary panel on Tuesday 25 September 2018. He was shown a red card by referee Matthew O’Grady in the second half of the Greene King IPA Championship match between London Irish and Bedford Blues on Sunday 23 September 2018. This was for dangerously tackling Alex Penny of Bedford Blues, contrary to Law 9.13.

Ioane contested the charge and it was dismissed by the panel comprising of Jeremy Summers (chair), Dr Julian Morris and Mike Tutty.

Panel chair Jeremy Summers said: “Having carefully considered the on-field position of the referee, the limited time he had to consider the incident and having heard from the Bedford player that contact was not to his head but to the ball, the panel was satisfied to the required standard that this was a rugby incident and not an act of foul play. The red card was therefore dismissed.

“The panel make clear that in reaching this decision there is no criticism of the match officials.”



Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2018 at 15:24
Interesting.
I love the fact that the 'victim' spoke honestly, which effectively led to the red card being revoked. I doubt that this would happen in certain other sports that I can think of.

Fortunately, the dismissal did not have a detrimental affect on the game.


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2018 at 16:32



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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 09:42
http://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/rfu-disciplinary-rory-jennings-london-scottish/" rel="nofollow - https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/rfu-disciplinary-rory-jennings-london-scottish/  

Official ruling on page 4 of:
http://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/#" rel="nofollow - https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/#


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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 18:40
5 weeks ban last night for Rory Jennings of London Scottish following a citing for an unprovoked off the ball elbow to the head of to Andy Bulumakauof Coventry.

Looks like Andy is out of action for the trip to Ealing TF and potentially the next few weeks with concussion from the attack. It’ll be interesting to see whether the ban or the injury is longer.
Potentially Jake Sharp too, who also failed a pitchside HIA check


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 18:50
http://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/richmond-s-damant-cited-for-tackle/" rel="nofollow - https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/richmond-s-damant-cited-for-tackle/  

Official result:

Rory Damant of Richmond F.C. has been given a three-week band after appearing before independent disciplinary panel.

He was cited by independent citing commissioner Danae Zamboulis following the Greene King IPA Championship match between Richmond F.C. and Nottingham R.F.C. on 20 October 2018 for dangerously tackling Gearoid Lyons of Nottingham R.F.C., contrary to Law 9.13.

Damant pleaded guilty to the charge and was given a three week suspension by the panel comprising Richard Whittam QC (chair), Mark Langley and Kylie Hutchison. The player is free to play again on 20 November 2018.

Panel chair Richard Whittam QC said: "The player accepted that although the tackle had only resulted in an on-field penalty, he reflected on the wording of law 9.13 once notified of the citing and accepted the charge.

“The tackle was reckless, it having occurred in a dynamic part of open play, and while the initial point of contact was difficult to ascertain from the video footage, the player did accept that he had made contact with the opposition player’s head. This results in a mandatory mid-range entry point under the sanction table.

“He pleaded guilty, has a clean record and was entitled to the full 50% mitigation on the basis of his submissions to the panel. The final sanction is therefore three weeks."




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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 15:52
http://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/richmond-s-mclean-dents-cited-for-tackle/" rel="nofollow - https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/richmond-s-mclean-dents-cited-for-tackle/

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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 13:09
 Alexander Schwarz of Cornish Pirates is due to appear before an independent disciplinary panel.

http://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/pirates-schwarz-cited-for-alleged-stamp/" rel="nofollow - https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/pirates-schwarz-cited-for-alleged-stamp/


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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2018 at 09:06
http://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/three-players-to-appear-before-disciplinary-panel/" rel="nofollow - https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/three-players-to-appear-before-disciplinary-panel/

Blair Cowan of London Irish, Charlie Clare of Bedford Blues and Adam Lee of Richmond FC are each due to appear before an independent disciplinary panel.   

Offy judgement:
http://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/three-players-to-appear-before-disciplinary-panel/" rel="nofollow - https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/three-players-to-appear-before-disciplinary-panel/




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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 16:05
http://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/jersey-prop-montout-alexis-cited/" rel="nofollow - https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/jersey-prop-montout-alexis-cited/

Ziana Montout-Alexis of Jersey Reds appeared before an independent disciplinary panel last night, where he received a four week ban for a dangerous tackle. 

Montout-Alexis was cited by independent citing commissioner Grant Seely for a dangerous tackle, contrary to Law 9.13. The incident occurred in the first half of the Greene King IPA Championship match between Ealing Trailfinders and Jersey Reds on Saturday 22 December 2018. 

The player was found guilty by the panel and received a four-week ban. He is free to play again on Tuesday 5 February 2019.

Panel chair Jeremy Summers commented: “The panel found that forceful contact was made to the head of an opponent player firstly with the shoulder and secondly with the player’s left arm. As required under the sanction table, this led to a mid-range entry point of six weeks. The player was not entitled to full mitigation because he contested the charge and he is therefore suspended for a period of four weeks.” 




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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 19:05
You will also find that your prop on loan to Old Elthamians Cameron something was also banned (very lightly imo) at same panel for a dangerous tackle. What’s Harvey teaching these boys😜

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So many Christians not enough Lions


Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 20:43
It’s unusual as the team tend to tackle low. Still, you get it wrong and you pay the price.


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 09:29
This business of penalising players who plead not guilty is overdone. I presume it's a carryover from the Criminal Justice system where you get credit for a Guilty plea and a lighter sentence. In that context there is more justification because it is vastly more serious and saves witnesses from stressful cross examination and vast amounts of money on long trials.
Transferring it to a sporting disciplinary tribunal is  not necessary IMHO.
However these tribunals are packed with QCs who no doubt merrily apply the rules they're used to in their working lives.
I presume it's Hollenstein on loan to OE's?


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pappashanga


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 18:46
http://www.englandrugby.com/governance/discipline/video/ziana-montout-alexis-jersey-reds-citing/" rel="nofollow - https://www.englandrugby.com/governance/discipline/video/ziana-montout-alexis-jersey-reds-citing/
The full RFU report with accompanying video is worth a look. Looks bang to rights to me so I'm surprised he contested it. The extra week for contesting the charge puts him out of the Irish match & the cup quarter final with Pirates.




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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 19:46
Reading the report he was indeed bang to rights.

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pappashanga


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 10:49
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

Reading the report he was indeed bang to rights.
The detailed report is very informative and helps to understand where the RFU stand on high tackles. The video footage clearly shows the incident and I have to say its a bang to rights yellow card and penalty which is what I (and the referee) thought at the time. The judgement converts the yellow card into a red card which appears to be the way the RFU are going on the high tackle issue and if they really want to stamp it out sanctions like this one may well achieve the objective. Personally I don't like the present card system which causes an unbalanced contest for at least 10 minutes out of 80 and often leads to unseemly barracking by supporters who look to see a player sent off. Its particularly the case when the sanction after a series of 5 metre mauls is a penalty try and a yellow card to a defending team forward who the referee randomly selects to pay the price. I do like the penalty try in such cases without the need for the conversion but it would be better imo to make it an 8 or even a 9 point score rather than 7 and a yellow card. If the referee really wants to make an example of an obvious offender he should call time off and make the culprit do 10 push ups at all four corner flags before restarting the clock with 15 a side competing. With their small squad I hope Jersey have enough cover at prop to field full teams particularly against Irish & Pirates in the coming weeks.

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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: Insignificant Tick
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 10:54
I have never understood why a penalty try is not sufficient. The game is about scoring in an even contest so why make a contest uneven for 10 mins after the reward has been given ?


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 11:17
I agree. Yellow card plus penalty try is a double punishment.The recent game where there were two yellow cards but no penalty try was very odd.Human variation.


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pappashanga


Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 12:35
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

Reading the report he was indeed bang to rights.


Looking at the video alone it was a wrap tackle (0:07 - 0:15) starting mid arm that slid up to the neck due to forward momentum and tackled player falling back and down as he is pushed. I do not see a swinging arm and a side view would have been clearer. As such I disagree with the red... it's a perennial problem with wrap tackles and height differentials. Frame by frame doubtless gives a better view. Who'd be a ref?

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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."


Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 13:36
Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:


I have never understood why a penalty try is not sufficient. The game is about scoring in an even contest so why make a contest uneven for 10 mins after the reward has been given ?

I would go further than that. I have seen refs signal advantage near the goal line, only to run under the posts after 2 or 3 passages of play by way of 'no advantage coming' etc.
Why wait? if a player stops a clear scoring opportunity by foul play, then they should just go straight under the posts. In fact, I have seen play continue and the team score in the corner, but miss the conversion. If they had have dropped the ball then they would have automatically received all 7 points.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 13:49
Players like to score tries.
Some players are competitive as to the number they score compared to other members of the team.
Therefore referees like to let a player socre rather than deny them by awarding the penalty try.

You can argue that if the try is scored, then the foul play did not prevent the try from being scored - so it does not meet the requirements of a Penalty Try. Though there is the seconday claue about scored in a less advantageous position - whih is about the difficulty of the conversion.

Aside from the fact the conversion might be missed, referees often do not feel they can show a player a yellow if the try is scored.


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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 14:01
But they can show yellows and not give the try.If a try is scored anyway wider it doesn't mean the the foul play didn't prevent a try-it just means there was another opportunity which was taken.


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pappashanga


Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 14:57
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

But they can show yellows and not give the try.If a try is scored anyway wider it doesn't mean the the foul play didn't prevent a try-it just means there was another opportunity which was taken.
But they are not getting advantage from the offence, they are being disadvantaged.
For instance, a player would have scored under the posts but a player tackles him whilst on the floor. Ref signals penalty coming. The play continues and a try is scored close to the 15mtr line, but as they were playing into the wind the kick is missed.
The player/team who was illegally tackled is now disadvantaged by 2 points. How can that be right?


Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 15:00
Originally posted by Brizzer Brizzer wrote:

Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

But they can show yellows and not give the try.If a try is scored anyway wider it doesn't mean the the foul play didn't prevent a try-it just means there was another opportunity which was taken.
But they are not getting advantage from the offence, they are being disadvantaged.
For instance, a player would have scored under the posts but a player tackles him whilst on the floor. Ref signals penalty coming. The play continues and a try is scored close to the 15mtr line, but as they were playing into the wind the kick is missed.
The player/team who was illegally tackled is now disadvantaged by 2 points. How can that be right?

Sorry, just read your post again Pappashanga, are you saying that the yellow is justified because the attacking team may have a less advantageous position or less time on the clock or both?
If so, then double jeopardy with a PT and YC is unfair?


Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 15:25
So, logivally if a team scores a try while the referee is signalling a penalty advantage in their favour, should the referee award the 7 points immeidiately as a panelty try?


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 15:39
I was commenting on what some referees do. If there was an offence which deserved a yellow but it didn't necessarily prevent a try, then there's a yellow but no try. It's a very fine judgment and might well be wrong though.
It is up to individual judgment and perhaps depends on how far the attacking team was from the try line- i.e. the further from the try line the more difficult to judge. Players do also drop the ball sometimes when a score is 'inevitable', so you can never be sure.
The more I explore this the less certain I become.


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pappashanga


Posted By: Insignificant Tick
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 16:04
You can only go on what would probably have happened. There are always ridiculous things that happen once in a blue moon, so to deny a try after an offence because you once saw a dog run on and tackle the  winger who was about to score is clearly wrong.    


Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 16:09
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

I was commenting on what some referees do. If there was an offence which deserved a yellow but it didn't necessarily prevent a try, then there's a yellow but no try. It's a very fine judgment and might well be wrong though.
It is up to individual judgment and perhaps depends on how far the attacking team was from the try line- i.e. the further from the try line the more difficult to judge. Players do also drop the ball sometimes when a score is 'inevitable', so you can never be sure.
The more I explore this the less certain I become.

I agree. You also have to add in the patience factor from Sir. I remember one of the Plymouth players getting a yellow following a PT. The Albion DOR protested double jeopardy after the game until the ref pointed out that there had been about 5 pens given in the 22 within the few minutes leading to the score, plus during the final move he played about 3 separate advantages before finally going under the posts. I think that the YC was given for sheer stupidity in the end.


Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 19:44
I do think that a few games I have seen on TV mostly and perhaps one instant against the Blues that sometimes offending teams get away with it.  I probably haven't explained this well and you kind of need to see the match to probably understand.

I have seen a team get given a couple of yellow cards close to the try line in close proximity as they committed multiple penalty offences.  Despite the attacking team being camped on the offending teams try line for a number of minutes the penalties aren't really those that could make it into a penalty try situation - no realistic chance of scoring.  After a period of time the attacking team knock on or something, which has made me feel the offending team had got out of jail and perhaps some kind of points penalty would've been appropriate on a 2nd yellow card offence say 2 or 3 points.

You could argue well if the attacking team cannot score against 13 well they don't deserve it but if the ball is being slowed down all the time to let themselves organise their defence.

However this often happens at the end of the game and sometimes giving up a player for 2 or 3 mins before the 80 mins is up can be a better option than the try.

One game that sticks in the memory involved Exeter this season and they won the game I think by 4 points.


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 20:09

It was cold in St Ouens today and in retirement I wimped out of my allocated task of pruning vines  and walking spaniels &  so read and watched this again. Sad I know but the other options were less than enlightening. My only conclusion is that it's a really tough job refereeing at this level. and  midgets  props are difficult to tackle. The Jersey tight head is certainly not a dirty player and I'm certain the game is not enhanced by his 4 week ban.



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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.



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