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N3LSE Run in.

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Forum Name: Regional Premier Leagues
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Printed Date: 18 Jun 2019 at 04:20
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Topic: N3LSE Run in.
Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Subject: N3LSE Run in.
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 11:28
LOOKING LIKE CHAMPIONS AND RUNNERS UP WILL BE SETTLED ON FINAL MATCHDAY.- WHAT DO YOU THINK?

THIS IS THE RUN IN:

            Sutton & Epsom               Wimbledon                  Westcliff

2.3       Westcliff (A)                    Dorking (A)                 Sutton & Epsom (H)
9.3       Guildford (H)                   Brentwood (H)            Tring (A)
23.3     Brentwood (A)                Sidcup (A)                    Bedford Ath (H)
30.3     Wimbledon (A)               Sutton & Epsom (H)     CS Stags (A)
6.4       Tring (H)                         Hertford (A)                  Chingford (H)
13.4     Bedford Ath (A)              Tring (A)                       Dorking (A)

With Sutts 4 points clear of both Wimbledon and Westcliff W/L BP's will be critical and only adds to the mathematical conundrum. We could finish with all 3 teams on the same points, however from a quick glance and early prediction I just give Westcliff the vote for the top spot. The impressive resurgence of Bedford Athletic could have a major say on the outcome. All views welcome.                           


Edited by FEZ ANT PLUCKER - 17 Feb 2019 at 13:05


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Fezantplucker



Replies:
Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 11:31
I posted this a week or two ago under Week 20 and it didnt get a lot of response. Thought I would submit it as a new post. What are your thoughts particularly after yesterdays results.

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Fezantplucker


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 11:34
Looking at the table with 4 games to go it appears to be a straight fight between Sutton & Epsom and Wimbledon.

The match between them on the 30th is massive with the victors looking good for promotion.

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RAID ON


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 11:59
The 2 week break will be a help to all, depending on any crops yesterday. Whatever the outcome all 3/4 contenders will need to recruit heavily to survive at L4.Ermm

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Fezantplucker


Posted By: BruceElliott
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 15:29
30th decides the favourite... but last day of the season Tring v Wimbledon could be the decider.

Tring very rarely lose at home, and Wimbledon have only just snuck a number of results away this season. If we go into the last weekend with Wimbledon needing a win, I think my money would be on Sutts taking the automatic spot.  

I've sat here for a few minutes and had another look at the table - Wimbledon to win against Sutts on the 30th, but then risk throwing it away on the last day of the season, losing to Tring.  

It'll come down to bonus points over the remaining 4 fixtures.


Posted By: chinese dave
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 16:11
I'm not sure you can write off Westcliff yet as they appear to have the easiest run in, the Wimbledon v Sutton match will obviously be crucial, but Wimbledon have three tough away fixtures against Sidcup, Hertford and Tring while Sutton need to beat Tring at home and the last match away to Bedford, who have found some good form recently, will also be tough. 
As F.P suggests the free weekend has come at good time for Sutton,  as i'm sure it has for the other contenders and injuries could play a major part in the final outcome. It's genuinely been a good season with every team, with the exception of Shelford, capable of winning games, and again as F.P states any team gaining promotion will need to recruit to survive.


Posted By: Rugby70
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 20:05
One of the most exciting finishes to this league in many a year and I think Westcliff still have a chance for second place. Really very surprised with the S&E v Guildford result, but as others have also said bar Shelford all the teams in this league can produce results against the form. Really surprised at Brentwood’s demise and Chingford I believe would have had a much better season if they trained twice a week and sorted out their indiscipline. I think Wimbledon will win the league with Westcliff coming second.

On another note we have Guernsey and Rochford Hundred next season, but who do others on this forum think will be joining this league. L1S is looking interesting and whoever comes second will get Colchester at Colchester.


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 20:49
Plus London Irish Amateur are coming back down too. Whether they actually come into LSE is another matter.


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 08:09
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Plus London Irish Amateur are coming back down too. Whether they actually come into LSE is another matter.

Guildford is further west than Sunbury, so I think they'd be more at risk of a level transfer.


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 11:16
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Plus London Irish Amateur are coming back down too. Whether they actually come into LSE is another matter.

Guildford is further west than Sunbury, so I think they'd be more at risk of a level transfer.

Ooh, Mr Sinckler won't like that! Cambourne rather than Tunbridge Wells is probably further than Quins will allow him to go.


Posted By: Starlord
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 08:40
I spent a little time yesterday looking up the 3 contenders for promotion from this league with respect to current "depth" within each club  - 

1. I see that Wimbledon 2s play in "Zoo Div 1" which as you know is an extremely strong division and      looking at their results, they have roughly a 50% win rate, this is against teams one could argue          would beat most (if not all) the teams in this league.

    Whereas both S&E and Westcliff 2's play in leagues significantly lower. So no / very little depth here.

2. I'm not sure how many players have remained at the Dons from last year but reading several              match reports etc, it would seem roughly 50-60%. 
     Therefore the majority of their squad have recent experience of N2 and maybe higher
    
    Does anyone know how many existing players from S&E and Westcliff have played at a higher              league? I am unable to ascertain an estimate.


One could therefore assume that S&E and Westcliff would need to recruit more players to cope with the rigors of Nat2, would you agree that this could be anywhere from 5-10, maybe more?

My question is - how would a club go about recruiting players without paying a match fee, especially asking them to play in N2?

Further, the club's expenses would quadruple (tens of thousands).

So IMHO, the exam question for me is - unless either club has enough income to cover expenses and increase in player's wages - would these 3 clubs want to play in N2?

I'm sure the players would but could the Club afford it?

Interested to hear your thoughts....






Posted By: chinese dave
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 09:20
I know that Sutton only currently have two players that have played at National 2 level, but importantly we have a coaching team that has both played and coached at a higher level than National 2 which is just as important. I suspect that should we get promoted we would need to recruit, but that brings it's own problems in that recruiting too many new players, particularly of the journeyman type, could disrupt the existing team spirit and club ethos, it really is a difficult balancing act ensuring any new players buy into what we already have. The other available possibility is that at National 2 level you are able to take on premiership sides academy players on loan which can often be beneficial, and as we aren't a million miles away from Quins and London Irish.
As far as wanting to go up, why not, you can't play competitive sport and not want to win, if we come straight back down as many have in the past so be it, but surely you have to give it a real go, if the players and coaching team are ambitious the club has to match them off the field to generate more cash, starting with charging an entrance fee, something we've avoided doing so far, and there will be some RFU contribution to cover the extended travelling costs.
It's not that long ago that we were relegated to London 2 after not winning a single game all season and bar takings were low, we are now fielding five adults sides, a vets and colts team and the bar is rammed every Saturday night so we're enjoying the ride and long may it continue.


Posted By: Dangerous Dave
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 09:39
Going to have to disagree with your point about the Zoo League Starlord. Sidcup played OE's in the Kent Cup Final last year and won (I bang on about it enough, glorious day). The OEs 2s I believe are top of that league this year and were there or there abouts last time, this team was further bolstered by a number of 1st team players. Therefore I think your comment is a little disingenuous to most (if not all) in this league. 

With regards to your question about recruitment I think thats a very valid point/concern. I think the most obvious way for both teams to recruit more players and to remain true to their roots would be to highlight what a great shop window Nat 2 is for further progression with your rugby career. Westcliff would be the highest Essex side by a long way which is bound to attract a few players, and S&E are surrounded by a host of traditionally big clubs, and are bound to pick up local talent who might not be getting the game time they want. Moreover the romantic in me does still believe in the player pulling on the jersey for the love of the game and his/hers club and want to play at the very best level possible, however I respect this may be a very rose tinted view.

I personally hope both S&E and Westcliff pull it off for the underdogs!


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#YAMS


Posted By: Sir_Q
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 10:53
Originally posted by chinese dave chinese dave wrote:

 
It's not that long ago that we were relegated to London 2 after not winning a single game all season and bar takings were low, we are now fielding five adults sides, a vets and colts team and the bar is rammed every Saturday night so we're enjoying the ride and long may it continue.

Chines Dave, That is quite some turnaround. What do you think are the major contributors for this upturn in fortunes?


Posted By: Starlord
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 10:53
I couldn't agree with you more! Any club should want to give it a go...!

I am merely stating my thoughts having looked at the 3 clubs wrt to possible player recruitment and the significant increase in expenses - Please bear in mind that the "assistance" from RFU is minimal so wouldn't rely on that. for example, you only receive assistance when travelling further than a certain mileage, and £25 per head to stay over night.....not much at all!

All 3 clubs I'm sure will  be able to attract players but sadly after pre-season, many players leave for greener" pastures....no romanticism nowadays i'm afraid.

Looking at the Zoo league this morning, Ampthill, Richmond and Cambridge 2's make up the top 3 with OEs closely behind. Having seen both Cambridge and Richmond play this year I can honestly tell you that Cup would NOT beat these two teams...I am certainly not being disingenuous.

If all 3 clubs are able to agree on loan players to cover areas where thin, that would be ideal to supplement the additional players picked over the off season.
Bear in mind these players will only train with the club once a week and as pointed out by CD, by recruiting large numbers this comes with its obvious challenges. 
And in the event a club is relegated the very next season, you then lose all your loan players and new recruits as they prefer to play in the higher leagues.... so then the club is back to square one with possibly a new squad to start all over again etc...Hertford, Southend, Dorking etc etc are a case in point.

Food for thought.


 


Posted By: chinese dave
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 11:55
Sir Q, without doubt the major contribution has been the quality in coaching, Paul Hodgson who was an ex minis and junior player is at his second spell coaching at the club, he was instrumental in getting us promoted back into London one and then returned this season to work alongside Mike Schmidt who came to us when he left Esher a couple of seasons back. Together they have improved the quality of our existing players and set us up with a proper game plan that has made us difficult to beat.
The other major factor has been behind the scenes where a lot of our volunteers and staff have worked tirelessly in transforming the bar and house and grounds which has made playing at the club a more enjoyable experience, with contributions from all of the senior teams, as well as the amazing support from our ever expanding minis and junior section. #one club


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 12:55
Originally posted by chinese dave chinese dave wrote:

Sir Q, without doubt the major contribution has been the quality in coaching, Paul Hodgson who was an ex minis and junior player is at his second spell coaching at the club, he was instrumental in getting us promoted back into London one and then returned this season to work alongside Mike Schmidt who came to us when he left Esher a couple of seasons back. Together they have improved the quality of our existing players and set us up with a proper game plan that has made us difficult to beat.
The other major factor has been behind the scenes where a lot of our volunteers and staff have worked tirelessly in transforming the bar and house and grounds which has made playing at the club a more enjoyable experience, with contributions from all of the senior teams, as well as the amazing support from our ever expanding minis and junior section. #one club
Chinois. I agree with your comments as Dorking followed  a similar route when we were promoted just after Bishops Stortford and just before Old E's. Firstly the increased level of expenses is quite substantial and I think I am right in saying we increased our entrance fee to £10 in line with most N2 sides. This has since met a lot of condemnation now that we have returned to our former level. It was however part of the need to sustain ourselves at L4. I know Sutts charge £5 for a programme but not everyone buys one, so you will need to address that income stream if promotion beckons. I have always been surprised that Sutts have not charged an entrance feeConfused
Dorking had a wonderful debut season at L4 finishing 4th or 5th? with not many L4 clubs knowing enough about us. We had a strong team similar to Sutts in that first season but lost a number of our best players who were poached away. Will Crow and Ross Grimstone to name two. Our 2nd season was wrecked with injuries and lack of depth in strength proved our downfall, despite having a few loan players here and there, but by then L4 clubs were informed.

There is no doubt that fundraising was integral to our income stream with all members playing their part, and the social side benefitted the club as a whole. As a rival supporter I do wish Sutts well and hope you make promotion and enjoy the journey. Every club should aspire to this and test the level. It will be fun but your support will need to boost their income on trips to Redruth and Taunton and earn some brownie points at homeWink  


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Fezantplucker


Posted By: Insignificant Tick
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 13:49
£10 !!!!
Is that as well as the membership fee and if so what value do you get for the membership then  ?

As Dorking famously don't pay their players, where does all the money go ?


Posted By: @boatyjames
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 13:55
Re Wimbledon I think we will need to recruit but hopefully 3 or 4 players and not the wholesale changes that occurred when we last went up to Nat 2 in 2017. That was mainly due to the different registration requirements in Nat 2 re nationality - our 2017 team had a lot of Kiwis etc.
I think we have quite a good set of players now but are still not playing as well as a team as I would like - we had a very odd game against Brentwood on Saturday which was a mix of sublime finishing and continual basic errors.
Who will go up - still seems very difficult to call - our match with S&E will be the decider I expect.


Posted By: Clueless like most
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 16:11
Having watched the promoted teams in Nat 2 this year, I think more than 3 or 4 players might be needed. Guernsey have only scored 434 points so far but have let in 832 and this could be near the 1000 mark when the season is done. Without funding, it seems teams may yo-yo. This does not make them bad teams at all. I think it may be the same for Canterbury TJs or Henley if they were to get into and win the playoff for Nat 1 entry. Each league jump is very difficult.


Posted By: Kentish Man
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 17:56
The £10 admission was for away supporters as I remember and that was the norm in Nat2 in fact Worthing were than charging £12 as well as others but i cannot remember to name names .I always thought it was reasonable ( including the £12 chargers) in all the Nat 2 games I watched for the quality of the Rugby experience  With respect to expense as has been stated earlier funding overnight accommodation for Redruth and Guernsey falls mainly upon club finances rather than the RFU, so I guess not enough left to pay players in the pot.


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 21:30
Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:

£10 !!!!
Is that as well as the membership fee and if so what value do you get for the membership then  ?

As Dorking famously don't pay their players, where does all the money go ?
IT. Read the post from Kentish Man. The £10 included a programme, parking, use of clubhouse facilities, etc etc, and this price was included if you had our pre-match lunch, which is one of the best lunches on the circuit for £26. The £10 charge was introduced when we gained L4 promotion. Members pay £5. Sadly there are still a lot of visitors that resent paying anything and go to any lengths to avoid it. I dont know how they expect rugby clubs to survive without charging. If every L5 club achieved promotion they would soon understand the significant increase in costs in moving to the higher level.


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Fezantplucker


Posted By: carlos fandango
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 22:34
'The other available possibility is that at National 2 level you are able to take on premiership sides academy players on loan which can often be beneficial, and as we aren't a million miles away from Quins and London Irish.'

This can have its downsides too. I was reminded last week that when Hertford were in the lofty heights, the 1st team coach got a call from a certain prem side telling him that the 2 lads of theirs who were on the team bus en route to our away game weren't to play. 

Yes I got to see Steffon Armitage play in a blue shirt (didn't rate him at all Confused) but to these old eyes it killed team/club morale and hastened our return to friendlier levels. I hope to get the chance to visit Redruth one day though!


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 23:33
Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:

£10 !!!!
Is that as well as the membership fee and if so what value do you get for the membership then  ?

As Dorking famously don't pay their players, where does all the money go ?
IT. Read the post from Kentish Man. The £10 included a programme, parking, use of clubhouse facilities, etc etc, and this price was included if you had our pre-match lunch, which is one of the best lunches on the circuit for £26. The £10 charge was introduced when we gained L4 promotion. Members pay £5. Sadly there are still a lot of visitors that resent paying anything and go to any lengths to avoid it. I dont know how they expect rugby clubs to survive without charging. If every L5 club achieved promotion they would soon understand the significant increase in costs in moving to the higher level.

I certainly resent being asked to pay to watch a game when the players are supposedly amateur, especially when I will be buying beers in the clubhouse anyway.


Posted By: Insignificant Tick
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2019 at 08:29
Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:

£10 !!!!
Is that as well as the membership fee and if so what value do you get for the membership then  ?

As Dorking famously don't pay their players, where does all the money go ?
IT. Read the post from Kentish Man. The £10 included a programme, parking, use of clubhouse facilities, etc etc, and this price was included if you had our pre-match lunch, which is one of the best lunches on the circuit for £26. The £10 charge was introduced when we gained L4 promotion. Members pay £5. Sadly there are still a lot of visitors that resent paying anything and go to any lengths to avoid it. I dont know how they expect rugby clubs to survive without charging. If every L5 club achieved promotion they would soon understand the significant increase in costs in moving to the higher level.

So you still charge £5 for members. What was the membership fee for then ? Just what is "use of clubhouse facilities", the toilets maybe, very cordial of you ?. Car park, how else would spectators arrive, especially to Dorking ? I'm a visitor, I'm going to buy food and drink at the club and I resent paying for entrance to this level. Plenty of clubs do survive without charging entrance fees. It's not visiting supporters responsibility to subsidize the home clubs model.If you charge membership fees and admission, it isn't membership as there isn't anything to be a member of. Bar prices are the same as local pubs, and food is not subsidized either. You cite club survival as an excuse to charge for any and everything and a commercial animal certainly needs to be fed. However if membership fees are really a donation with no benefits then call it as such. In a commercial world transparency is required and why should a rugby club treat its "members" / customers any different.  Cash cows spring to mind. Mooooooove along there !  


Posted By: carlos fandango
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2019 at 09:24
This has been as done to death as much as the B-word. 

How about getting back to the run-in. 


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2019 at 11:33
Originally posted by carlos fandango carlos fandango wrote:

This has been as done to death as much as the B-word. 

How about getting back to the run-in. 

Totally agree and it is what it is. If you object then dont bother coming. I certainly have never objected paying and would willingly pay an equivalent at any club I visit. Some clubs charge for programmes as their entrance fee, some by the vehicle, and others do not charge. It is really a matter for the individual clubs. I dont think Sidcup charge, Sutton dont, and Bedford didnt, but the point is every club has the right to manage its own finances and L4 is a major hike in those costs. Period.


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Fezantplucker


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2019 at 19:47
Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by chinese dave chinese dave wrote:

Sir Q, without doubt the major contribution has been the quality in coaching, Paul Hodgson who was an ex minis and junior player is at his second spell coaching at the club, he was instrumental in getting us promoted back into London one and then returned this season to work alongside Mike Schmidt who came to us when he left Esher a couple of seasons back. Together they have improved the quality of our existing players and set us up with a proper game plan that has made us difficult to beat.
The other major factor has been behind the scenes where a lot of our volunteers and staff have worked tirelessly in transforming the bar and house and grounds which has made playing at the club a more enjoyable experience, with contributions from all of the senior teams, as well as the amazing support from our ever expanding minis and junior section. #one club

Chinois. I agree with your comments as Dorking followed  a similar route when we were promoted just after Bishops Stortford and just before Old E's. Firstly the increased level of expenses is quite substantial and I think I am right in saying we increased our entrance fee to £10 in line with most N2 sides. This has since met a lot of condemnation now that we have returned to our former level. It was however part of the need to sustain ourselves at L4. I know Sutts charge £5 for a programme but not everyone buys one, so you will need to address that income stream if promotion beckons. I have always been surprised that Sutts have not charged an entrance feeConfused
Dorking had a wonderful debut season at L4 finishing 4th or 5th? with not many L4 clubs knowing enough about us. We had a strong team similar to Sutts in that first season but lost a number of our best players who were poached away. Will Crow and Ross Grimstone to name two. Our 2nd season was wrecked with injuries and lack of depth in strength proved our downfall, despite having a few loan players here and there, but by then L4 clubs were informed.

There is no doubt that fundraising was integral to our income stream with all members playing their part, and the social side benefitted the club as a whole. As a rival supporter I do wish Sutts well and hope you make promotion and enjoy the journey. Every club should aspire to this and test the level. It will be fun but your support will need to boost their income on trips to Redruth and Taunton and earn some brownie points at homeWink  


FP - £10 'entrance fee' - I was under the impression that Dorking were not able to charge an entry fee to the ground or pay players because the Big Field is charitable land. Was I mis-informed?

If it is for entry to the clubhouse, no-one should be pilloried for evading this payment just to watch the game - if they don't want to use the clubhouse facilities.

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RAID ON


Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2019 at 14:02
Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:

Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:

£10 !!!!
Is that as well as the membership fee and if so what value do you get for the membership then  ?

As Dorking famously don't pay their players, where does all the money go ?
IT. Read the post from Kentish Man. The £10 included a programme, parking, use of clubhouse facilities, etc etc, and this price was included if you had our pre-match lunch, which is one of the best lunches on the circuit for £26. The £10 charge was introduced when we gained L4 promotion. Members pay £5. Sadly there are still a lot of visitors that resent paying anything and go to any lengths to avoid it. I dont know how they expect rugby clubs to survive without charging. If every L5 club achieved promotion they would soon understand the significant increase in costs in moving to the higher level.

So you still charge £5 for members. What was the membership fee for then ? Just what is "use of clubhouse facilities", the toilets maybe, very cordial of you ?. Car park, how else would spectators arrive, especially to Dorking ? I'm a visitor, I'm going to buy food and drink at the club and I resent paying for entrance to this level. Plenty of clubs do survive without charging entrance fees. It's not visiting supporters responsibility to subsidize the home clubs model.If you charge membership fees and admission, it isn't membership as there isn't anything to be a member of. Bar prices are the same as local pubs, and food is not subsidized either. You cite club survival as an excuse to charge for any and everything and a commercial animal certainly needs to be fed. However if membership fees are really a donation with no benefits then call it as such. In a commercial world transparency is required and why should a rugby club treat its "members" / customers any different.  Cash cows spring to mind. Mooooooove along there !  

I don't know these clubs but in Berkshire a lot of the clubs membership cards now give a discount at the bar (typically about 10%) so if you spend enough time in the clubhouse bar you can recoup your membership fee in cheaper beer Big smile. If you discount wetherspoons most clubhouses are charging prices just below that in local bups so an additional 10% makes them a cheap place to drink as well. 


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2019 at 16:43
Raider. Last time I was at Worthing it was £12 entrance fee. Is It still the same. Dorking lease the Big Field from NT so we are responsible for the greater part of upkeep and all rugby pitches stretching all over the land. Of course this costs nothing does it. Really this conversation is getting sooo tedious.Unhappy

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Fezantplucker


Posted By: @boatyjames
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2019 at 17:54
have to agree that it is tedious. I/my Dad paid to watch all sorts of amateur rugby in the 1980's from Cambridge University through to Twickenham. Just because players aren't paid does not mean that physio's, coach's etc etc aren't and they need to be to create the professional environment necessary to attract good players to continue playing rugby post university. Adults don't want to keep playing just for the beers these days they want to be learning something and get a higher level of coaching than they got at school, university or the academy they are dropping out of.


Posted By: Sir_Q
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2019 at 17:55
There a bit of talk on here about the massive increase in costs when going from London Prem to Nat 2. Travel would be a factor but possibly only a hike of £2-4k dependent on location and aside from the obvious costs of player payments which I understand aren't relevant in at least 2 of the 3 teams in contention and weren't relevant for Dorking when they went up, what else would contribute to these massive increases in overheads?


Posted By: Surreyben
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2019 at 18:28
Whilst I don't have a problem paying for admission for rugby, whether at Dorking or elsewhere, I think there has to be a recognition of the poor spectator facilities on offer at the majority of rugby clubs. Paying £10 for admission at non-league football would give you access to seating and cover. Whereas, paying £10 admission for Level 5 rugby and standing getting soaking wet on grass/mud is not great.


Posted By: @boatyjames
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2019 at 18:28
from our (Wimbledons) experience there is not a massive increase in costs, and the up side is more home games with more supporters who are more willing to pay £5 for a program. The only real cost increase is player costs to stay in that league. We are well located so it probably would cost us less than others but it is still a necessary cost if you aim to stay in Nat 2 long term.


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2019 at 19:22
Originally posted by Sir_Q Sir_Q wrote:

There a bit of talk on here about the massive increase in costs when going from London Prem to Nat 2. Travel would be a factor but possibly only a hike of £2-4k dependent on location and aside from the obvious costs of player payments which I understand aren't relevant in at least 2 of the 3 teams in contention and weren't relevant for Dorking when they went up, what else would contribute to these massive increases in overheads?

I think one of the major costs of promotion to L4 is ground improvements such as fencing off the pitch and providing dugouts for H and A coaches/physios. If this is not compulsory I concede, but on promotion Dorking spent £1000's on this. We also pay our coaching staff and in particular physios and medical team. A lot goes into that. The club has a new development plan to include a viewing balcony in the clubhouse and a major overhaul of players facilities and fitness gym. Lots going on for the benefit of the players and supporters alike. The last time I was at Tonbridge Juddians they had no enclosed pitch, so maybe someone can tell me if they fenced off their 1st team pitch since their promotion. The club has also spent a lot of money on drainage and parking facilities, and the 1st team pitch is manicured and treated professionally each close season. As a Ltd Company DRFC also has to pay VAT to the government, certainly on pre-match lunches which includes the price of entrance fee. So apart from the club running costs on matchdays I am sure there are other overheads I have not thought of. Certainly the travel costs at L4 are significantly higher than L5 with minimul RFU support. I do know that in compliance with our lease DRFC are unable to construct a separate stand opposite our clubhouse, otherwise I am sure it would have been done. Sutton are fortunate as they have a decent pitchside viewing stand albeit some distance from their clubhouse, but they may have to invest in some permanent pitchside fencing/rails.  


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Fezantplucker


Posted By: chiefwiggum1984
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2019 at 20:35
Originally posted by @boatyjames @boatyjames wrote:

from our (Wimbledons) experience there is not a massive increase in costs, and the up side is more home games with more supporters who are more willing to pay £5 for a program. The only real cost increase is player costs to stay in that league. We are well located so it probably would cost us less than others but it is still a necessary cost if you aim to stay in Nat 2 long term.

And what does Wimbledon spend the £30 from program sales on!!...............Wink


Posted By: @boatyjames
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2019 at 20:49
As you say not a major source of income- particularly this year!


Posted By: chinese dave
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2019 at 05:51
Sutton already have fencing / rails on both sides of the pitch.


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2019 at 12:48
Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Raider. Last time I was at Worthing it was £12 entrance fee. Is It still the same. Dorking lease the Big Field from NT so we are responsible for the greater part of upkeep and all rugby pitches stretching all over the land. Of course this costs nothing does it. Really this conversation is getting sooo tedious.Unhappy


No it is £10 for non-members

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RAID ON


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2019 at 12:52
Originally posted by Sir_Q Sir_Q wrote:

There a bit of talk on here about the massive increase in costs when going from London Prem to Nat 2. Travel would be a factor but possibly only a hike of £2-4k dependent on location and aside from the obvious costs of player payments which I understand aren't relevant in at least 2 of the 3 teams in contention and weren't relevant for Dorking when they went up, what else would contribute to these massive increases in overheads?


With trips to:-

Redruth
Taunton
Dings Crusaders
Old Redcliffians
Clifton

I think you are underestimating the additional cost (didn't mention Guernsey and Birmingham &Solihull as they are likely to go down)

May also be Barnstaple should they win a playoff against the 2nd place in LSE

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RAID ON


Posted By: Starlord
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2019 at 13:40
Agreed, like I said on a previous post, these costs rise significantly....10's of thousands when you have to hire a bus there and back & stay overnight if required.......
BUT to return to the topic at hand;
I'm more interested on the 3 teams up for promotion and there respective squad depths....
Does anyone have any meaningful views on their current depth and on what sort of recruiting these clubs may implement....?
(can we try and not talk about costs of entrance & programmes....please...) 


Posted By: @boatyjames
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2019 at 15:30
We (Wimbledon) currently have some depth in players physically capable of playing in Nat 2. This is another lesson we learnt last season when we suffered a significant rolling injury crisis over the first 4 months of fixtures. It is physically a much more attritional league mainly due to the increased size of the players involved.
What we now lack is enough "star" players needed to make the breaks and score the points. As those of you who have seen us this season we are not playing the exciting brand of rugby we were 2 seasons ago when we fought TJ's for the 1st and 2nd spots.
Looking at the other 2 sides I would think that Westcliff will struggle purely because of the admirable way they are set up. They compete with big payers Rochford Hundred and Southend for external players in their area and there is a much smaller player base than in south-west London. They have a fantastic side (I think their 8 is the best player I have seen in this league this season) but will struggle to build a large enough squad of capable players for Nat 2 IMO.


Posted By: Lord_Kitchener
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2019 at 18:07
Originally posted by Starlord Starlord wrote:


Agreed, like I said on a previous post, these costs rise significantly....10's of thousands when you have to hire a bus there and back & stay overnight if required.......
BUT to return to the topic at hand;
I'm more interested on the 3 teams up for promotion and there respective squad depths....
Does anyone have any meaningful views on their current depth and on what sort of recruiting these clubs may implement....?
(can we try and not talk about costs of entrance & programmes....please...) 


I think your point about depth is an interesting one. Referring back to your comment on the Dons 2’s playing in Zoo 1. You have to also consider that 4 years ago they were in Zoo 4 getting humped 80 points by Hertford. They have been promoted year on year since then and a lot of this come down to the attention that has been shown to the 2’s and that they are not just cannon fodder for the 1’s. They also beat Esher 2’s last season to win the Surrey Cup.

The RFU ranks Zoo 1 as Level 5.5 meaning that it is the equivalent of London 1/2.

Recruiting will have to be done. How it is done will be an interesting one. Irish will be going down with some players keeping their eyes open. Esher is on the route of dropping down to Nat 2 for the first time in years. Again, players looking elsewhere. Will players need to be paid? Recognition payments would do well rather than mercenary payments, but that’s just my opinion.



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