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Poll on the RFU &Yorkshire Carnegie

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Topic: Poll on the RFU &Yorkshire Carnegie
Posted By: Big Eddie
Subject: Poll on the RFU &Yorkshire Carnegie
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 16:53
A poll on the RFU's actions re Yorkshire Carnegie. I think the question is a simple and fair one and the possible responses are also balanced. Let's see what the strength of feeling is

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''The future isn't what it used to be''



Replies:
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 17:33
I am going to continue to post regarding this poll to ensure it doesn't slip down the rankings and fall into disrepute. There are a lot of reasons why I think that the RFU's decision to allow Yorkshire Carnegie to continue in the Championship is disgraceful. 

I am going to list 5 such reasons please feel free to add to my list or set out a different point of view

1. The management of YC has shown no rationale why YC should be given £500k+ of RFU funding
2. Richmond are far more deserving of RFU support
3. With the support of the RFU YC has already disrupted Hull Ionians and are likely to disrupt a lot more northern clubs
4. The RFU's support for YC is a huge slap in the face for all rugby clubs that manage within their means
5. The RFU is massively cutting funding to levels 3 downwards but is prepared to let YC Pi** £500k+ of RFU funding up the wall
6.



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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: TigerTitan
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 17:51
6. kieron moore and calum mckenzie are contracted already absoltue disgrayce same will hull onions 


Posted By: TigerTitan
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 17:52
we would have loved 500k at titans!


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 17:54
Originally posted by TigerTitan TigerTitan wrote:

we would have loved 500k at titans!


I am sure any club would have liked 500k

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RAID ON


Posted By: Albionlass
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 18:04
Allowed to continue after running a £6million debt but satisfied with a CVA when other clubs have fallen for a lot less ££££££ . AngryAngryAngryCensoredCensoredCensored


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Lifes a journey . Never a race .


Posted By: fenboy
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 18:18
So the RFU are bailing out a side (I won't use the word 'Club') who are in total thralldon to a Rugby League side. Anybody on a single visit to Headingley could not fail to notice how little the Union side is thought of.

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Fucti Fineaux


Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 20:03
Originally posted by TigerTitan TigerTitan wrote:

6. kieron moore and calum mckenzie are contracted already absoltue disgrayce same will hull onions 


Twit. That could be a spelling mistake.

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All Knwoing All Seeing


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 20:21
Playing Devils Advocate some what. 

Yorkshire Carneigie are only following in a long line of clubs who have had financial difficulties and who subsequent restructured themselves to continue - and for those at the 'Championship' level - continued to recieve the RFU income.

I don't remember such vitroil aimed at those clubs in the past. What makes YC different?

The vast majority of the debt is to their main shareholder and the players will recieve something from the move - Can other clubs who went down similar routes say them same? 

Are people seriously wanting a(nother) club to disappear? 


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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: greenpower
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 21:13
for a start   what makes them think  they represent  yorkshire  when there are  better run  clubs  who all stay within their means   
   as it stands  there dosn,t seem to be any punishment   if  no relegation next year 
   the  real possibility  of carnegie  simply  taking  already signed players from other northern clubs  and disrupting  pre season  plans  
 the sheer arrogance  of a club who last season bought their way out of a serious relegation scrap  and  couldnt pay for it   now  trying to buy a squad  to stay in the championship  when to be fair they should be  placed in  yorkshire division 5   
    of course its going to  rile   a lot of people   as the rfu  seem to  want leeds to survive  and fork out  half a million quid  to a  club who dosn,t deserve it    just think what that could  buy for several smaller  community clubs   


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 21:20
Originally posted by greenpower greenpower wrote:

for a start   what makes them think  they represent  yorkshire  when there are  better run  clubs  who all stay within their means   
   as it stands  there dosn,t seem to be any punishment   if  no relegation next year 
   the  real possibility  of carnegie  simply  taking  already signed players from other northern clubs  and disrupting  pre season  plans  
 the sheer arrogance  of a club who last season bought their way out of a serious relegation scrap  and  couldnt pay for it   now  trying to buy a squad  to stay in the championship  when to be fair they should be  placed in  yorkshire division 5   
    of course its going to  rile   a lot of people   as the rfu  seem to  want leeds to survive  and fork out  half a million quid  to a  club who dosn,t deserve it    just think what that could  buy for several smaller  community clubs   

But other clubs have done similar and didn't recieve the same flack.

Do we criticise BIRMINGHAM Moseley for their name?

YC won't be able to "simply take" other clubs signed players.  They has to be an agreement in place for contracted players to move.  

The "no relegation next year" is simply conjecture at this point. We could see an wholesale re-organisation of the leagues by then if/when the Premiership ringfences or a British League is introduced. 




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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 21:22
Originally posted by TigerTitan TigerTitan wrote:

we would have loved 500k at titans!

Correct me if I am wrong, after Rotherham's finance troubles and restructure, they still recieved the RFU money.  Did you criticise and complain then?


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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 21:28
Richard calm down.


Posted By: greenpower
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 21:34
most  clubs that  did similar were punished by the way of a servere points  deduction  which   inevitably relegated them or were placed  at the bottom of the  league structures  apart from plymouth albion who.s points deduction was totally meaningless  


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 21:48
Originally posted by greenpower greenpower wrote:

most  clubs that  did similar were punished by the way of a servere points  deduction  which   inevitably relegated them or were placed  at the bottom of the  league structures  apart from plymouth albion who.s points deduction was totally meaningless  

Richmond and London Scottish were placed at the bottom of the league structure but their situation was different - technically the two clubs had merged into London Irish and the two clubs were "new". London Welsh went bust and didn't reform - but played on through their amatuer arm. 

Plymouth Albioin entered Administration - YC haven't. 
 
I'm struggling with others who had points deductions imposed.  Help me out. 


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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: greenpower
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 21:51
launceston were one     coventry   15 points 2009

why were halifax placed at the bottom leagus ?


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 21:59
Originally posted by greenpower greenpower wrote:

launceston were one

why were halifax placed at the bottom leagus ?

Launceston, according to Wikipedia, entered Administration and recieved a 20 points deduction. 

Halifax, after the death of their benefactor, withdrew from the leagues themselves and restarted at the bottom. 

Are there others?




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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 22:01
Originally posted by stadium stadium wrote:

Richard calm down.

I am trying to understand why so much venom aimed at YC, when other clubs have had similar financial difficulties (which may have led to players not being paid or underpaid) and they didn't face such a wrath of fury. 




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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: greenpower
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 22:09
its probaly a northern hatred as a club with the audacity  to take the  yorksire name  has f.....d up   and  seem proud to do it 


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 22:10
Haywards Heath also withdrew from the leagues and dropped down to the bottom when their financial backer pulled out, likewise East Grinstead when the backer pulled out and took everything he bought with him (including the doors). 

If you can't afford to play at that level, you should admit it and pull out and start again gracefully rather than clinging on to torture your most loyal of fans by having the team get smashed every week for the next year.


Posted By: Full Bodied Red
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 22:21
Maybe the anger about the RFU saving YC is also about the alleged £500k from the RFU. Many other northern, well run, prudent clubs are finding their well made plans for 2019/20 season turned upside down because of the threat of losing players so close to the start.
Not quite the same but northern clubs will remember how the RFU "saved" Plymouth at the expense of Wharfedale in National 1 a few years ago.



Posted By: fenboy
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 22:56
Rotherham took the RFU shilling to allow Leeds Tykes to remain in the Premiership. 

All the other clubs that have been 'dealt with' by the RFU have been clubs. Visit Headingley. YC appear to be a very bit part player to the Rhinos.


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Fucti Fineaux


Posted By: semisonic
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 23:28
It's not vitriol and hate at YC, they are the easy target for a lot of people's anger at what they feel is the RFU ruining the game if you're not one of the 13 premiership shareholder clubs.

For me, I still dislike Hartpury more than YC because they both got up and stayed up by being Gloucester 'A' in all but literal name while subsidising their players' wages as coaches / employees of the college.


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 08:57
Richard's question is a fair one and I can only answer for myself. I do not hate Yorkshire Carnegie and their appropriation of the Yorkshire name is irrelevant to me but I do see a big difference between their failure and resurrection compared to others that have occurred. I would suggest in other instances of financial failure there was a club still there to save. In Yorkshire Carnegie this is not the case:

1. YC's corporate failure is complete and there seems to me to be no evidence of any semblance of a club remaining.....there were no players left and no coaches left before the new phoenix poached the Hull Ionians DoR . 
2. Accordingly at the end of July the RFU is now financing a start up into what is a largely fully professional league and it is condoning and enabling what is an undeserved and highly improbable venture. Why?
3. I have scrutinised and financed a lot of start ups .....a start up is just about the hardest thing you can ever do in business. Most fail. I do not see any glimmer of hope for this very improbable start up, it is bound to fail.
4. This YC start up has adverse consequences right across rugby: 
- it will affect other northern clubs whose players and coaches are being poached
- it will affect the players it recruits who may well be out of their depth in the professional Championship
- it has affected Richmond who have been denied natural justice
- it will affect the integrity of the Championship as YC will surely be whipping boys
5. The inetgrity and ability of the RFU is again seen to be lacking

For the above reasons I am scathing and highly critical of the RFU's actions. I blame the RFU more than I blame those behind this YC phoenix . 

The RFU is failing in all sorts of ways including financially. It has sought to address its failings by squeezing and pressurising clubs at level 3 and below and now it has taken actions to toss away at least £500k on a venture which is bound to fail and which  will negatively affect those northern clubs at level 3 and 4 whose players will be poached by this doomed venture.

The RFU's behaviour is reckless/misguided and a slap in the face to rugby at levels 3 and below. In condoning and enabling this farce the RFU has brought itself further into disrepute. 


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: High Heidjin
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:06
Originally posted by semisonic semisonic wrote:

For me, I still dislike Hartpury more than YC because they both got up and stayed up by being Gloucester 'A' in all but literal name while subsidising their players' wages as coaches / employees of the college.
Clap Clap Clap


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The Inner Game Will Win Every Time


Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:08
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Richard's question is a fair one and I can only answer for myself. I do not hate Yorkshire Carnegie and their appropriation of the Yorkshire name is irrelevant to me but I do see a big difference between their failure and resurrection compared to others that have occurred. I would suggest in other instances of financial failure there was a club still there to save. In Yorkshire Carnegie this is not the case:

1. YC's corporate failure is complete and there seems to me to be no evidence of any semblance of a club remaining.....there were no players left and no coaches left before the new phoenix poached the Hull Ionians DoR . 
2. Accordingly at the end of July the RFU is now financing a start up into what is a largely fully professional league and it is condoning and enabling what is an undeserved and highly improbable venture. Why?
3. I have scrutinised and financed a lot of start ups .....a start up is just about the hardest thing you can ever do in business. Most fail. I do not see any glimmer of hope for this very improbable start up, it is bound to fail.
4. This YC start up has adverse consequences right across rugby: 
- it will affect other northern clubs whose players and coaches are being poached
- it will affect the players it recruits who may well be out of their depth in the professional Championship
- it has affected Richmond who have been denied natural justice
- it will affect the integrity of the Championship as YC will surely be whipping boys
5. The inetgrity and ability of the RFU is again seen to be lacking

For the above reasons I am scathing and highly critical of the RFU's actions. I blame the RFU more than I blame those behind this YC phoenix . 

The RFU is failing in all sorts of ways including financially. It has sought to address its failings by squeezing and pressurising clubs at level 3 and below and now it has taken actions to toss away at least £500k on a venture which is bound to fail and which  will negatively affect those northern clubs at level 3 and 4 whose players will be poached by this doomed venture.

The RFU's behaviour is reckless/misguided and a slap in the face to rugby at levels 3 and below. In condoning and enabling this farce the RFU has brought itself further into disrepute. 

To be fair a very sensibly weighted post and I do look to the RFU as the primary cause of this mess (I think they are playing at Ostriches) - although re branding to "Yorkshire" did irk me somewhat but that is because of where I reside methinks....


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Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!


Posted By: greeneyed
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:16
Richard
If you think that the opprobrium heaped on YC is unprecedented you must have forgotten the outrage at the scandal of Plymouth Albion, who under the Regulations at the time of the blessed RFU were allowed to continue, paying off their 'rugby debts' and allowing their non-rugby creditors to go hang.


Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:30
Again BE I totally agree with your post . . what I worry about most is the implications to other clubs.

As I have posted on Nat 1 thread, what if Rotherham, DMP or Wharfedale have set budgets and recruitment to challenge in their respective leagues and then they lose key players now, and subsequently dont realise their ambitions . . this has huge knock on effect for sponsors and loyal supporters of those clubs. Will the RFU support them financially.

If the RFU had been doing it job it would have stopped this farce long ago, YC failed to publish its 2018 accounts and that should have been a trigger. Their biggest sponsor Excercise 4 Less was losing big money and was obviously not going to be able to keep pumping big money into the club, the Directors would have been aware of this for  along time! There has been a catalogue of mis management by the Board and the RFU. I think this is why everyone is so irate. Players and suppliers have been badly affected and now the ripples will affect lots of other innocent clubs who run responsible business models.

YC bought their way out of definite relegation with money they knew they would never have and should face the consequences. Doncaster Knights show the way to develop a rugby club, investing in excellent facilities for players, supporters and sponsors . . and owning them!


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Run with it


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 09:45
I didn't realise Yorkshire Carnegie hadn't filed their 2018 accounts, you are right Runitback that was a glaring warning sign. I think there have been a number of posts answering Richard's question as to why the outrage.

However although  I think Richard is right to try end elicit other points of view it seems pretty clear that Yorkshire Carnegie and the RFU have very few defenders.

Perhaps the RFU will look at Rolling Maul and realise the strength of feeling against their actions, or perhaps no one at the RFU cares


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 11:50
From my experience with the NCA and people at the RFU, I am pretty sure the RFU do care. They are having to operate within the rules that have been developed and which YC have been very clever at using for their benefit. People have mentioned Haywards Heath, East Grinstead, Rugby and others as Clubs that have folded but in every case mentioned (and Bees, the latest), it was the Club that took the decision to withdraw. YC could have done that but haven't and that is the problem.

Remember also, that the the RFU is constrained by an agreement with Premiership Rugby which was negotiated by previous Directors and which cannot be amended from year to year, thus all cuts to budgets fall on Level 3 and below. Those cuts are unacceptable but even more so is the ring-fencing of money for the Premiership.


Posted By: Fat Albert
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:11
With the possible intent of trying to introduce some humour into this intense discussion I suggest that Ampthill's connections might view a weak Leedshire team as an unexpected opportunity to consolidate in 2019/20 and build for season 2020/21...

Tongue Wink Embarrassed

There's always a silver lining


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a Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother


Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:17
Originally posted by Fat Albert Fat Albert wrote:

With the possible intent of trying to introduce some humour into this intense discussion I suggest that Ampthill's connections might view a weak Leedshire team as an unexpected opportunity to consolidate in 2019/20 and build for season 2020/21...

Tongue Wink Embarrassed

There's always a silver lining

LOLLOL


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Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:31
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

From my experience with the NCA and people at the RFU, I am pretty sure the RFU do care. They are having to operate within the rules that have been developed and which YC have been very clever at using for their benefit. People have mentioned Haywards Heath, East Grinstead, Rugby and others as Clubs that have folded but in every case mentioned (and Bees, the latest), it was the Club that took the decision to withdraw. YC could have done that but haven't and that is the problem.


I can understand your point Halliford but doesn't the RFU have to scrutinise and approve YC's business plan? I am obviously not privy to the YC business plan but I cannot see how in the time available 
YC can assemble a squad of say 25 players capable of safely playing at level 2 without poaching players from other northern clubs.

Other posters have said that normally there are release clauses in a standard players contract which allows the player to move to a higher ranked club. This maybe the case and may provide the opportunity for YC to legally poach such players but it doesn't make it right and it will have a detrimental effect on such players' existing clubs.

YC has to find circa 25 players capable of playing at level 2 from somewhere by the start of the season. If they are to cast their net wider than the north they will need to spend significantly more than if they recruit from northern clubs.

Perhaps Sale Sharks are going to supply say 10 players.....that is still another 15 to find. What is the point this will not be a proper rugby club just a collection of players.



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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:33
It is the precedent the RFU have set

A.N.Other club can now see that you can risk all on taking on journeymen players to achieve safety in the knowledge that the worst comes to the worst and you bankrupt yourself doing it there is an "easy" way out where you still get your RFU money, the main shareholder takes a theoretical hit (they usually dont expect their money back anyway) and it is the numerous small local "non rugby" creditors who will take the hit

I would have felt a bit better if the RFU had put out a statement saying something to the effect of "YC still in championship as they are compliant the current rules as written - however we have formed a working party to look at how we amend the regs to ensure this can not happen again as it is obviously not a preferred outcome and manifestly unfair on other clubs who have striven to live within their means"


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 12:45
I just don't understand why this is happening. YC didn't just get into financial trouble it essentially ceased to exist as a Championship club. No coach and no players.

Why is there any effort at all to resurrect it? 
What will change in this reincarnation?

Is the phoenix going to attract enough new supporters to make Yorkshire Carnegie viable?
Is the new Yorkshire Carnegie going to provide an improved rugby union focus in Yorkshire and the North?
Is the new Yorkshire Carnegie going to benefit the Championship?
Is the new Yorkshire Carnegie at Level 2 going to benefit other Yorkshire and Northern rugby union clubs?

If anyone can explain the Why to me I would like to understand because to me this just looks like absolute folly.


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:04
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

but doesn't the RFU have to scrutinise and approve YC's business plan? 

If the RFU started to scrutinise any clubs business plans then the game would lose clubs left, right and centre.   

The RFU are a body there to run the game, not oversee financial proprietary of individual clubs - this should be done by the board/members/shareholders and the relevant legal authorities.

The RFU role is encourage participation in the game which is what they are doing by allowing YC to continue.




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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:21
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

but doesn't the RFU have to scrutinise and approve YC's business plan? 

If the RFU started to scrutinise any clubs business plans then the game would lose clubs left, right and centre.   

The RFU are a body there to run the game, not oversee financial proprietary of individual clubs - this should be done by the board/members/shareholders and the relevant legal authorities.

The RFU role is encourage participation in the game which is what they are doing by allowing YC to continue.

I wasn't suggesting that the RFU should be scrutinising all clubs business plans but I did think that this was a fundamental reqmnt for a club to retain its status after an insolvency event. A CVA is an insolvency event


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:29
If it isnt then it should be put into the regs that as well as paying off all rugby debts a business plan signed off by a regulated auditor ought to be in place showing how the club will survive the following season without recourse to further insolvency events before a club is allowed to continue in their current league.

If a club can find an auditor willing to put their own company on the line to sign it off that is good enough for me - the RFU are not accountants (that much is obvious from looking at their own business attempts)



Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:34
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

but doesn't the RFU have to scrutinise and approve YC's business plan? 
The RFU role is encourage participation in the game which is what they are doing by allowing YC to continue.

I understand that this is part of the RFU's role but from what I know I do not believe that allowing Yorkshire Carnegie to continue in the Chapionship will encourage participation in the game. My concerns on this point are as follows:

1. YC continuing in the Championship with RFU support is likely to have a negative impact on other northern level 3 and level 4 clubs
2. If YC get pummelled each week this is going to turn off participation in Yorkshire and elsewhere
3. If a YC player gets badly injured becasue he is not physically equipped to play at level 2 it will be hugely negative regarding encouraging participation.
4. The horlicks that the RFU is making of rugby is very negative to continued participation by the large and essential volunteer force that runs the game below Level 2. The decision regarding YC continuing in the Championship seems to me to be very counter productive indeed 

To be honest I cannot see in what possible way allowing YC to continue in the Championship is going to encourage participation in the game.


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:36
Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

If it isnt then it should be put into the regs that as well as paying off all rugby debts a business plan signed off by a regulated auditor ought to be in place showing how the club will survive the following season without recourse to further insolvency events before a club is allowed to continue in their current league.

If a club can find an auditor willing to put their own company on the line to sign it off that is good enough for me - the RFU are not accountants (that much is obvious from looking at their own business attempts)



You overlook the fact that a club can be solvent at one date, then their backer dies/withdraws etc the next day for many reasons and the club suffers. You can't account for this.

Sometimes it is not anyone's fault. Sometimes it is contrived.

Should there be a difference?

What is the solution? Points deduction, RFU monies withheld, demotion to the bottom of the pyramid?

Should the punishment be across the board or on a case by case basis?



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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: greeneyed
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:46
I think the insolvency Regulation may have been rewritten since Plymouth's very clever exploitation of the loophole of not having to pay 'non-rugby' creditors. By the way, if I had been one of those, I'd have been suing the directors and the RFU for fraudulent preference, one of the penalties for which in unlimited personal liability!
 
As for insolvency being sudden, although there could be the odd example, insolvencies develop over a length of time, and the directors should have been taking legal advice over the situation long before they called time.


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:48
The essence of the problem is not that YC became insolvent, but that knowing they were, they spent a lot of money on players, knowing they couldn't pay them. Now they benefit from the activities of those players. The immorality of it is breathtaking.
As for the rest of it, I'm not qualified to express an opinion.



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pappashanga


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 13:55
I am qualified to express an opinion and greeneyed is spot on and so are you pappashanga!

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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: fenboy
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:00
Wouldn't it just make things simpler if companies/organisations/individuals sponsoring a player/club put there money in up front? Or is that too simplistic?

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Fucti Fineaux


Posted By: backrowb
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:04
But YC committed money (player contracts) for next season that they didn't have


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:20
All clubs in levels 1-4 need to present audited accounts. (reg 5.1.3)

Clubs in level 2 and those in level 3 seeking promotion need to supply budgets for the forthcoming season and twice a year their current position against that budget.  (reg 5.2.1).




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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:33
Directors of a company have equal responsibility for its oversight regardless of whether they call themselves non executive directors or are not operational directors. 

The directors should be monitoring the company's financial position regularly and should not commit the company to expenditure that they do not reasonably believe the company can pay as such expenditure falls due.

When a company is close to the financial edge the directors should be regularly (often daily and weekly) forecasting cash flows with real accuracy and if they commit to expenditure that they cannot reasonably expect to be paid as such expenditure falls due to be paid, they could be guilty of wrongful trading and end up being personally liable for any such wrongful expenditure.

Such judgements are always reviewed in hindsight by a liquidator and directors have to be extraordinary careful as to what they commit to when they are teetering on insolvency. 

In the case of Yorkshire Carnegie if I had been a director of that company I would have wanted legally binding assurances from the major sponsors (backed up by clear evidence of an ability to provide such funding on a timely basis) before I would have committed Yorkshire Carngeie to contracts that they couldn't fulfill. Perhaps the directors did get such effective formal assurances but the circumstances suggest that if they did they were ineffective.

The Directors of YC could have been personally liable for such contracts if creditors had successsfully pursued them but the CVA will now in all likelihood have washed this possibility away. 

I don't know but this may have been the motivation for the CVA rather than an Administration because through the CVA the creditors will have formally accepted their 15p in the £ (or  whatever the actual payout was) rather than a situation under an Administration where they may possibly have received the same amount from the Administration but could have still had the option of pursuing a legal redress against the Directors if they thought such a case had merit.

Being a director of a limited company has real responsibilities and real risks attaching to it. If you are not vigilant you can end up being personally liable.


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:55
It maybe the insolvency practitioners suggested to all that a CVA allowed some value to stay in the club and thus a possibility of some money back whilst a full insolvency would remove all value form the company and thus less monies to disperse

My point was that any club entering an insolvency type event should at that point to continue in the leagues have to provide a fwd business plan signed off by a professional before being allowed to remain at the same level - the RFU are not qualified to tell so make an accountant with professional indemnity insurance do the sign off so it can be as much as possible assured correct


Posted By: The Joy of (Level) 7
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 16:10
A Rhubarb’s muddle.

The going concern note (though standard in cases like this) always strikes me as pure smoke and mirrors. It might also give the RFU/directors something to hide behind. Out of date of course, even allowing for the minimum 12 month consideration period.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02618121/filing-history" rel="nofollow - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02618121/filing-history

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TJOS


Posted By: TigerTitan
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 16:44
brexit is bringing the economy to its knees! leeds first of many 


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 17:59
Originally posted by TigerTitan TigerTitan wrote:

brexit is bringing the economy to its knees! leeds first of many 


Another quality comment from TT!

It strikes me that if YC had been at any level below the Championship they would no longer exist.

BE has made a number of considered and valid points over several threads.

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RAID ON


Posted By: greenpower
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 18:12
no one from the rfu will give a toss about community clubs  and  no one will speak out  in fear of missing their  jollys to japan  it wouldnt supprise me if those worthless pieces of s--t   running this sport havn,t    already             booked any remaining  carnegie  management  on the flight  with them 


Posted By: BlackCountryMan
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 18:50
I remember working out once that the average score for poor Manchester FC across the season when they crashed out of the Championship was 88-3. That is currently the score on Big Eddie’s poll. Must be a meaning in that somewhere.

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Trying to figure it all out


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 21:33
You remembered slightly.
In National 1, no Championship then, the averaged 14-40. Indeed they won two games. Sedgley Park and Newbury
It was the season in National 2 they averaged 3-88.




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Blood and Sand


Posted By: geralltrugby
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 22:06
There was plenty of vitriol directed towards LW Richard.


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 22:36
Let's keep on topic. I've deleted a number of posts. If you see a off topic post report it and will be looked at, please do not feed the trolls. 

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Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 23:40
Originally posted by The Joy of (Level) 7 The Joy of (Level) 7 wrote:

A Rhubarb’s muddle.

The going concern note (though standard in cases like this) always strikes me as pure smoke and mirrors. It might also give the RFU/directors something to hide behind. Out of date of course, even allowing for the minimum 12 month consideration period.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02618121/filing-history" rel="nofollow - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02618121/filing-history



There are 47 resignations and 5 retained 'directors'
Still in their post.

Sir Ian McGeech resigned . I am suprised that he so quiet in the media.

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Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2019 at 15:27
There have been exactly 100 responses to this poll which is not a huge number but I believe it is probably likely to be a fair reflection of the views held by rugby people generally.

96% of  responders do not agree with the RFU's decision to allow YC to stay in the Championship although 10% whilst not agreeing with the decision do believe that the RFU was acting either in the interests of the game at large or the RFU's decision was understandable for other reasons

4% of responders believe that the RFU is right to allow YC to remain in the Championship and half of these ( i.e. 2) believe that the RFU has done absolutely the right thing.

I wonder where those 2 responders are from?




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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Fat Albert
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2019 at 15:53
Championship Rugby's Twitter account has posted a new tweet, presumably Yorkshire Carnegie's confirmed team for 2019/20, like everything else regarding YC it's a bit lacking in detail Wink


https://twitter.com/champrnews/status/1156469985507729408" rel="nofollow - Linky


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a Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother


Posted By: greeneyed
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 09:01
It is probably worth adding to Big Eddie's fine summary of the role and responsibilities of a Director that the definition of 'Director' in the context of a rugby club (community club or otherwise) extends to all committee members and those in any managerial position. You have been warned!


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 09:10
Given what has come out in the last few days about the situation at Yorkshire Carnegie I think this poll should get more prominence to collect more responders

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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 09:13
It gets worse and worse.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 09:16
Everyone should vote in this poll to show the RFU what we all feel about the situation at Yorkshire Carnegie. To my mind it beggars belief that the RFU is aiding and abetting YC in this appalling embarrassment

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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Dalesman
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 09:43
Everyone should read The Rugby Paper this morning.
Lays it out in awful detail. Hope RFU Council members see it.
Why is RFU allowing this?


Posted By: fenboy
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 10:40
There has been a lot of interesting material in The Rugby Paper recently.
However, there was one question that was not asked. When Jon Newcombe interviewed former chairman Paul Caddick a few weeks ago he neglected to inquire  as to why the latter (one of the richest men in Yorkshire I'm led to believe) recalled his 'loans' and withdrew his investment after the last relegation from the Premiership, thus negating any advantage rom the parachute payment.

IMHO this is where the seemingly terminal decline of YC began.


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Fucti Fineaux


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 10:59
Originally posted by fenboy fenboy wrote:

There has been a lot of interesting material in The Rugby Paper recently.
However, there was one question that was not asked. When Jon Newcombe interviewed former chairman Paul Caddick a few weeks ago he neglected to inquire  as to why the latter (one of the richest men in Yorkshire I'm led to believe) recalled his 'loans' and withdrew his investment after the last relegation from the Premiership, thus negating any advantage rom the parachute payment.

IMHO this is where the seemingly terminal decline of YC began.


Just shows the pitfalls of having most of your money coming from 1 source, if it goes you are instantly in trouble.

The writing was on the wall last season, without the influx of Southern Hemisphere players they would have been relegated (losing another large revenue stream).

As for Caddick, it's his money so he can do what he wants with it. Presumably he wanted a Premiership side not a Team in the Championship.

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RAID ON


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 19:31
I have just read today's Rugby Paper article on Yorkshire Carnegie and the very negative views from their own fans on the The Yorkshire Carnegie forum.

My previously held view that it was a disgraceful decision by the RFU to continue to support YC in the Championship has been further endorsed by today's disclosures. Unless there is some very significant mitigating factor that we are not aware of how can the RFU possiblly support Yorkshire Carnegie's continued participation in this season's Championship?

The RFU piously preaches respect, fair play etc but it does not appear that the RFU is prepared to adopt these principles as far as Yorkshire Carnegie is concerned.

I must be missing something here because it surely cannot be right that the former players of Yorkshire Carnegie are being personally pursued in respect of medical costs incurred at YC's behest but the RFU will still provide YC with some £500k of funding for this season in the Championship.

I hope someone who knows a lot more about the details of this can tell me that I have absolutely the wrong end of the stick and all the financial issues in respect of monies owed to former players and medical expenses incurred by such players at YC's behest are being settled by the RFU before any other money will be paid by the RFU to YC this season


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: omnes Paviores
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 20:11
Is it that the medical providers are only looking to receive 15p in the £ and therefore they are chasing the players for the remaining 85p. Will this situation with the medics have an effect on players in lower leagues? Will the medics require upfront payments before the player has been recompensed by his insurance company.


Posted By: greenpower
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 20:16
what ever they have received  or are chasing  it shouldnt be the players  who have to pay 


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 07:34
A post from the YC forum on sportsnetwork from a Yorkshire Carnegie supporter with a Username of Tightprop. A very good post indeed which sums up the situation perfectly and far better than I could. I hope the RFU take notice

"I find this news is the more shocking and more disgraceful than anything during the past year. 

I thought the most impressive game this year was YC vs London Irish. We won that because of the whole-hearted efforts of players who already knew that their jobs were at risk. And yet the club of which I have been a member for many years has deserted these players and left them to pay the medical costs of trying to recover and get fit to play for the club. 

Every club I have played for or supported has had the rugby ethos: we look after each other as we are all part of the rugby family. That is why players and supporters always meet after the game. That is why supporters of opposing teams stand side by side and put the game before anything else. That is why we are mindful of former players: they remain part of the rugby family. 

Players do take a risk as employees of a business in not being paid, ruthless as that can be. But they can never be expected to be abandoned by their club when they are injured putting their bodies on the line. 

Frankly, I believe, in this case, contracts, CVAs, signed agreement are irrelevant. 

Yorkshire Carnegie has to commit to these players that the club will pay all of these medical expenses. YC must contact every medical creditor and guarantee that YC will pay. How the board decides to do that is up to them. If that means we go down this year and next and the year after, so be it. Anything else is just not on. 

If the board does not pay all these medical debts, then Yorkshire Carnegie can no longer call itself a club. For a club stands for a coming together of players, coaches, supporters, ball boys, and so on who are part of the rugby family. A family which looks out for each other, respects each other and stands up for each other. 

The board have failed to stand up for the medical needs of our players. If the board take action now, they can earn the respect of supporters like me and maybe take the first step to recover some redemption in the view of other clubs in the Championship. 

If the board fail to act promptly, then YC as a club will cease to exist in terms of the goodwill and the sense of family that YC had generated over the years through all its members. 

And if the board fail to act promptly, this is one fan who will not stand on the South Stand supporting a so-called club which has abandoned its players."
''The future isn't what it used to be''


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 08:01
Originally posted by omnes Paviores omnes Paviores wrote:

Is it that the medical providers are only looking to receive 15p in the £ and therefore they are chasing the players for the remaining 85p.

No, it appears to be because the medical bills were not included in the CVA because the club's contract with the medical insurers included a clause in the small print saying that the players would be personally liable in the event of the club not settling any medical bills.  And as they weren't included in the CVA - the settlement of which, at 15p per £1, we are led to believe has been accepted by 100% of the creditors - the players are being asked to foot the bills.

Edit: actually, having read more this morning I'm not sure that this is completely accurate, either.  There may also have been a similar clause in the players' contracts, which puts them on dodgier ground legally regardless of the moral issue.  There's also a suggestion that you may be right, in that the medical companies opted not to be a part of the CVA so that they could pursue the players for 100% of the claim.


Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 08:38
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by omnes Paviores omnes Paviores wrote:

Is it that the medical providers are only looking to receive 15p in the £ and therefore they are chasing the players for the remaining 85p.

No, it appears to be because the medical bills were not included in the CVA because the club's contract with the medical insurers included a clause in the small print saying that the players would be personally liable in the event of the club not settling any medical bills.  And as they weren't included in the CVA - the settlement of which, at 15p per £1, we are led to believe has been accepted by 100% of the creditors - the players are being asked to foot the bills.

I just hope that this clause does not exist in any other clubs contracts, I personally find this repugnant, how can a club treat their players with such disdain? Of all the things that Carnegie management have done this is by far the worst. Angry 

Do we know if the Leeds Supporters are running a funding page to try and support these players in paying their medical bills? I feel the rugby community should reach out and help these men, as Carnegie is clearly not going to.


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Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!


Posted By: omnes Paviores
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 09:09
Shutting the door after the horse has bolted.

Two lessons to be learnt by contracted players. 

1.   Read all the contract even the small print

2.   Take out your own insurance both medical and loss of earnings


Posted By: backrowb
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 09:50
Originally posted by omnes Paviores omnes Paviores wrote:

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted.

Two lessons to be learnt by contracted players. 

1.   Read all the contract even the small print

2.   Take out your own insurance both medical and loss of earnings
  impossible on a paltry champ contract


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 09:59
Think carefully about the financial stability of the club you are joining. Paperwork is only a last resort.

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pappashanga


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 10:00
Originally posted by backrowb backrowb wrote:

Originally posted by omnes Paviores omnes Paviores wrote:

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted.

Two lessons to be learnt by contracted players. 

1.   Read all the contract even the small print

2.   Take out your own insurance both medical and loss of earnings
  impossible on a paltry champ contract
 

Not on some of the reported salaries owed at Leeds - although to pay for it you would of course first have to be paid....

Elsewhere I agree.


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keep the faith


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 10:01
Originally posted by backrowb backrowb wrote:

Originally posted by omnes Paviores omnes Paviores wrote:

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted.

Two lessons to be learnt by contracted players. 

1.   Read all the contract even the small print

2.   Take out your own insurance both medical and loss of earnings
  impossible on a paltry champ contract


Refuse to sign contracts that contain this sort of one-sided clauses?

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RAID ON


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 10:01
The CVA does not eliminate the debt.

It is merely an agreement that the unsecured creditors will not seek liquidation if the company fulfils its side of the agreement.

It does not remove the guarantees that other parties have offered - therefore creditors can call on those guarantees. Nowthey often don't as if you are expecting repayment over a period of time subject to the company trading, then making the director backrupt is a good way to stop the company trading and you end up with nothing.

But in this case it appears that the players guaranteed payment to the health care provider and they obviously feel it is worth persuing that as those players are not contributing to the revenue generated by the main creditor.

As omnes paviores says read the small print and take out insurance.



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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 11:55
Does anyone think that the RFU will deal with this latest and quite scandalous issue promptly and effectively? 

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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 11:59
Obviously Not

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Run with it


Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 13:51
I will be honest, I am quite shocked by this if true. Does anyone know how many players are (could be) affected? or how much the medical debt is? Surely, the RFU have to step in here and as already mentioned, any bill should come out of the funding to YC.

Above everything else, bar none, player safety HAS to come first. All of this stuff about HIA and concussion means absolutely nothing if the poor player then has to foot the bill for doing his job. Is this standard in any other industry? and as for the suggestion of the player getting their own medical insurance...I can't afford my own and I work in a Bank (fortunately, my employers pay this...I hope!!), imagine what the cost must be for a professional rugby player. How would they complete the application for any existing or previous conditions?

I have always liked and admired YC (or Leeds) and think that their supporters are a great bunch, but I am sorry, I can't support the way that the club has behaved in the past 12 months. Absolutely shocking and disgraceful. They ran out of money after the 2017/18 campaign, they should have taken their medicine and dropped down a league this time out as the Titans did the season before.

I'm just saddened by the whole thing.


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 15:41
Good post Brizzer.

This is a scandal that cannot be swept under the carpet. The RFU has to get a grip of this and very quickly


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 15:54
This is from the RFU model player contract for Champ levels clubs

4.6 arrange promptly and pay for such treatment as may be prescribed by the medical or dental adviser to the Club pursuant to injuries sustained in the performance of the obligations set out in Clause 5 for a duration of up to [nine] [Championship clubs may want to amend this number] months from the date of injury (or until a new contract has been obtained by the player to play professional sport) in order to restore the Player to fitness to play professional rugby even if this Agreement expires after such treatment has been prescribed PROVIDED that the Club shall not be liable for paying any dental charges for injuries that arise when the Player is not wearing a mouth guard unless he has been so advised by a dental practitioner; 

and for prem level

5.6 arrange promptly and pay for such treatment as may be prescribed by the medical or dental adviser to the Club in relation to injuries sustained in the performance of the obligations set out in clause 6. Such treatment shall be for a duration of up to nine months from the date of injury (or until a new contract has been obtained by the Player to play professional rugby) in order to restore the Player to fitness to play professional rugby or, in the case of the Player’s retirement due to such injuries, to a level of health and fitness consistent with the nature and extent of the injury suffered. The obligation to provide such treatment shall continue to apply even if the Term of this Agreement expires after such treatment has been prescribed PROVIDED that the Club shall not be liable for the cost of any dental charges for injuries which arise in circumstances where the Player has failed to wear a mouth guard unless his failure to do so was upon advice from a dental practitioner; 

Straight cut and pastes from  https://www.englandrugby.com/participation/running-your-club/player-registration/contracts-and-agents" rel="nofollow - https://www.englandrugby.com/participation/running-your-club/player-registration/contracts-and-agents  so if the contracts had that clause in they were deviations from the standard contract model and any agents involved ought to have noticed and questioned the change surely


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 07:17
Whatever the RFU stood for in bygone times has evaporated. Yesterday's fanfare from the RFU about the start of a new Championship season made no mention that one of the sides being Yorkshire Carnegie had their one and only player in the Championship photo shoot. It must have felt very raw to the former YC players with financial worries as a result of YC's failure

As an organisation the RFU does not seem to care for the sport anymore just the business aspect and they do not seem to be any good at that either.

From a governing body I expect leadership, integrity and transparency............unless someone knows differently I am not seeing anything like this from the RFU. 

The RFU seem to be just hoping that Yorkshire Carnegie can somehow resurrect themselves from this awful mess to allow the Championship to proceed however from where I am standing this seems unlikely and I can see this getting a whole lot worse with:

- former players of  YC having to pick up unexpected medical costs
- Northern National 1 and National 2 clubs being raided to cobble together a team for YC
- The Championship falling further into calamity as YC are not sufficiently competitive
- YC failing financially a second time because they have no income other than the RFU monies

I cannot see any optimistic outlook for YC because their brand is now tarnished and it is difficult to imagine many wanting to play for them or support them. 

The RFU have two choices that is either to 1. continue to support YC and hope (this is what I expect them to do) or  2. belatedly come to the conclusion that YC should not be allowed to continue in the Championship - (which is what nearly 90% of responders to this poll believe should be the course of action)

If the RFU continues to support YC's participation in the Championship I believe this will be to the significant detriment of the game of rugby union and the RFU. I cannot see any likelihood of success for YC in the Championship just continuing and worsening pain for all concerned

However I do accept that perhaps the RFU are actively managing and monitoring the situation and a change of approach is about to be announced. Lets hope so




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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 09:07
The RFU are also sending out the wrong message to other clubs - ie it's OK to spend money you haven't got and you will get no reward (Richmond) for managing your finances responsibly.


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 09:07
Agreed Stalwart

I would guess that only a few on Rolling Maul may venture onto the Yorkshire Carnegie Message Board on sports network. For those that don't it is clear that even the most diehard YC supporters are embarrassed and upset about what has been going on at YC.

A typical post under a thread entitled Utter Disgust from a poster called 'Leeds Carnegie Signed Flag'...clearly a diehard supporter if his nom de plume is anything to go by

"Having read various comments about it I’m just not in the slightest bit surprised, the club has been poorly managed for years and now it’s finally coming out, to think of all those years stood in the South stand (occasionally the posh North with WW and Hax) watching a team give everything and being a proud supporter to now believing this is the end it’s extremely sad but as I said it’s unsurprising. 
Season ticket for Gloucester? Well if it wasn’t a 300 mile round trip then maybe"


I can understand the poor fellow's upset. Yorkshire Carnegie has failed, it is done. I cannot understand what there is left there to resurrect, no players, no supporters, what is the point?

The RFU should let the entity go and put their effort behind more deserving clubs.




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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 09:24
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Agreed Stalwart

I would guess that only a few on Rolling Maul may venture onto the Yorkshire Carnegie Message Board on sports network. For those that don't it is clear that even the most diehard YC supporters are embarrassed and upset about what has been going on at YC.

A typical post under a thread entitled Utter Disgust from a poster called 'Leeds Carnegie Signed Flag'...clearly a diehard supporter if his nom de plume is anything to go by

"Having read various comments about it I’m just not in the slightest bit surprised, the club has been poorly managed for years and now it’s finally coming out, to think of all those years stood in the South stand (occasionally the posh North with WW and Hax) watching a team give everything and being a proud supporter to now believing this is the end it’s extremely sad but as I said it’s unsurprising. 
Season ticket for Gloucester? Well if it wasn’t a 300 mile round trip then maybe"


I can understand the poor fellow's upset. Yorkshire Carnegie has failed, it is done. I cannot understand what there is left there to resurrect, no players, no supporters, what is the point?

The RFU should let the entity go and put their effort behind more deserving clubs.


 
Has anybody summarized this poll result and written to any of the various bits of Rugby journalism out there? I've found that The Rugby Paper is usually pretty keen for content, as every letter I've written them has been published.


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 09:35
gerg,

I haven't because of time constraints. However feel free if you would like to summarize and send to the Rugby Paper etc. Although there hasn't been a huge number of responses about 120 so far isn't too shabby and I think the poll questions were fair and balanced.

I am grateful to Richard Lowther for representing the point of view of why Yorkshire Carnegie should be supported by the RFU because it stimulates appropriate debate. Personally I was hoping for more YC supporters/RFU supporters to post setting out their point of view but as there hasn't been any other than Richard I am concluding the view on what should happen is pretty unanimous.

I would still be keen to see alternative points of view as well because I am now really struggling to understand the justification for the RFU's continued support for Yorkshire Carnegie in this season's Championship.........

I would also like to see as many responders as possible to the poll which I have kept open until the end of August , the more responders the greater the representation.


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 09:44
Although in fairness BE is was great to see Leed's full squad turn up for the photo shoot at Twickenham yesterday!

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Run with it


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 09:46
From Leeming Tyke on the Tykes board:

"Keep it quiet, but he's wearing training kit there as we don't seem to have a playing kit for next season yet!"

You could not make it up.


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Blood and Sand


Posted By: The Joy of (Level) 7
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 10:26
When YC went on their recruitment drive last season, was the abortive funder someone who’d provided them with significant sums in the past, and on more than one occasion?

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TJOS


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 10:28
To be fair, it's not unusual for players to turn up at the launch day in last year's kit or training kit - at LW we've never had the new kit available for pre-season friendlies, players wearing it for the first time on the opening weekend of the league season.  And yes, that was even when we could afford to pay for it up front!



Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 10:40
Originally posted by The Joy of (Level) 7 The Joy of (Level) 7 wrote:

When YC went on their recruitment drive last season, was the abortive funder someone who’d provided them with significant sums in the past, and on more than one occasion?

JOL I presume your point is that if this had occurred previously the Directors of YC could be forgiven for assuming this funding would be in place to meet the contractual liabilities.

I think to an inexperienced person that may be reasonable but not for a director. If everything hinges on funding from one source then I would expect directors to ideally make sure that there was a contractual obligation and a capability to fund such committments.

I accept that this isn't always possible in a short time scale but I would expect the directors to have done reasonable due diligence and to record their thought processes as to why it was reasonable for them to enter into such committments.

To be honest I know little about the workings of Yorkshire Carnegie and I am not being pious or overly critical of the Directors of YC, business failures happen for a host of reasons and there but for the grace of god etc. 

My concern is more about the decision to resurrect Yorkshire Carnegie and let them continue in the Championship with some £500k of RFU money. I cannot understand either the business logic or the benefit to the game of rugby behind this current  course of action.



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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: The Joy of (Level) 7
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 10:50
BE,
Odd though it might sound, I asked the question to find out the answer! Hopefully someone close to YC might respond.

-------------
TJOS


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 10:57
Originally posted by The Joy of (Level) 7 The Joy of (Level) 7 wrote:

BE,
Odd though it might sound, I asked the question to find out the answer! Hopefully someone close to YC might respond.

Sorry if I scuppered your question. 

However hopefully one of the former or present directors of Yorkshire Carnegie will come onto Rolling Maul to explain


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: The Joy of (Level) 7
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 11:10
I’ve been on the YC forum but haven’t found much information.

Rational business decisions and professional rugby are strange bedfellows perhaps, but the RFU appears to have a fixation with Leeds. It’s baffling as to why.

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TJOS


Posted By: fenboy
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 11:12

It is a very sad state of affairs. Perhaps I may give my personal angle as a former supporter.

I had some great times following Leeds Tykes both home and away in the Premiership and Championship. There was a great rapport between the players and the playing staff (with the exception of one RWC-winning coach whom I felt was up himself).

However, following the last relegation from the Premiership, and the subsequent withdrawal of main support from the stadium owner, IMHO the matchday experience became less enjoyable bit by bit. Now this may seem trivial to some, but to me, Rugby Union isn't just about the game on the field. It's about meeting up with mates, enjoying banter with the opposition over a few beers. Knowing the players and sharing the ups and downs. But this bacame more and more distant.

It was always obvious that the Union side were the least-supported side side in Headingley Stadium. But it appeared to me that more and more their identity was being removed, or dwarfed, by the presence of the League side. Even during the Union season the Rhinos were always in your face. Visit the club shop, wade through racks and racks of Rhinos gear to find a few Carnegie items hidden away as an afterthought. You can argue the case that thereare far more League than Union supportes and I would be mad to disagree, but a little thought on matchdays could have made things a little more welcoming.

I was on the original Fans Forum, meeting with the club staff.  Meetings were held both singly and jointly with the Rhinos supporters. It was dispiriting to come away from the latter. A case in point – the discussion of installing a real ale bar for League matchdays, the resistance to to putting on a single barrel of decent beer on Union matchdays as ‘it wouldn’t sell’. The club then gave us use of the ‘Carnegie Cafe Bar’ on matchdays. It would be ours, decorated with photos and memorabilia of the Union side. Wonderful it was, huge photos and wall-banners of former players, heroes all. And a barrel of Black Sheep on matchdays! Then, midway through the season, two of the massive wall banners were taken down and replaced by massive generic Rhinos adverts. No explanation given.

I’d had enough. To my mind this was exceptionally poor customer service, and strengthened my opinion that we were only thought of as cash-generators by the stadium owners. As evidenced by the fact that I was once sold an away matchday ticket at face value by a club official despite the fact that it had ‘Complimentary’ stamped all over it. So I decided to vote with my feet as nothing was going to change. That was at the end of the 2014/15 season. 

I didn’t go to the first home match of the following season, and after 15 years I had great withdrawal symptoms. But then I went to Manchester to see the 2015 RWC dead-rubber game between England and Uruguay at the Ehihad. The same day as the Rugby League Cup Final at Old Trafford featuring Leeds Rhinos. Great planning. On the train back to York the few of us England supporters were subjected to a barrage of foul abuse from the Rhinos ‘fans’ all the way back to Leeds. I enjoy banter, and usually give as good as I get, but this was unpleasant and hostile. I am only glad (!) that the Rhinos won their cup, as I shudder to think what would have happened on that train ride home otherwise. I swore then that not a penny more of my money would go to the Rhinos, either directly or indirectly, and have not been to Headingley since. I now watch a local club play at a lower level, and thoroughly enjoy it. It has reminded me why I fell in love with rugby in the first place.

I don’t have an issue with the employees of Headingley Stadium, right up to and including Gary Hetherington who I have always found most approachable but is in the unenviable position of serving two masters. However I believe that in order to reduce costs they have taken their eye off the ball as to what makes a good Union day out. The biggest issue is the Cinderella-like way the Union supporters are treated.

I tried raising these points on the YC message board several times, but instead of constructive criticism and debate I was mainly met with derision and snide remarks. Best to leave it there.

As I said, very sad.

 



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Fucti Fineaux


Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 11:15
I think for some mis guided reason the RFU think that for Northern Rugby, rugby in Yorkshire to succeed they need a team in Leeds . . which is totally mis guided. The market will always dictate and quite simply there is no appetite for RU in Leeds . . . but Yorkshire as a county has some superb rugby clubs and I am sure these will continue to thrive and one or two might grow significantly. Maybe Otley with their development money might start to climb the ladders. 

The RFU know they could push LW out and that it would return, due to its passionate supporters and long history . . they also know this is not the case with YC. The final demise will come, it just appears its going to be very slow.

The RFU have given many deadlines for YC but supposedly the end of this week is crucial . . . but I expect YC to pass the latest test on a promise they have many "irons in fires".  Seriously 5 weeks until the Championship cup competition starts and they do not have a squad, this would all be funny if this were not true.

And even more painfully £500k will be spent on a few mercaneries and some willing students and academy lads who at best can expect a one year deal . . . what kind of club is this to support?

PS if the Directors had done any due diligence on their main sponsors they would have seen that eXercise for less had lost £2m in the previous year . . so not exactly ideal as a basis for long term growth.


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Run with it


Posted By: fenboy
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 11:25
A previous main sponsor, the Skelwith Group, also went bust! The blue-chip money only goes to one team at Headingley!

You are right about Leeds not being a Union city, but Yorkshire as a county is. Doncaster already has fine facilities which could be expanded to meet Premiership criteria. As you mention, Otley and Harrogate could also be in the frame if a Phoenix Premiership club is to be formed. And there is the (hopefully) soon to be opened community stadium in York.

Even in Leeds, there is the South Leeds stadium which could have been used to stage matches. Currently used by Hunslet RL side, it's compactness would give a far-better matchday atmosphere and would surely be cheaper to run than the millstone that is Headingley, and the Kirkstall training ground which is surely over the top for a part-time club with scant resources.


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Fucti Fineaux


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 11:31
Brilliant insight from Fenboy who explains very eloquently what Rugby Union means to him and why Yorkshire Carnegie will almost certainly fail. 

Runitback I understand there is a deadline of 8th August but I couldn't fathom what on earth it was about. Could you enlighten us?


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''The future isn't what it used to be''



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