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Rams deducted 5 points

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Topic: Rams deducted 5 points
Posted By: quercynomad
Subject: Rams deducted 5 points
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 12:33
Just seen on the Rams website they have announced that they have had 5 points deducted for an issue with their Payment of Players declaration last season.

https://www.ramsrugby.com/news/rams-deducted-5-points-2515876.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.ramsrugby.com/news/rams-deducted-5-points-2515876.html







Replies:
Posted By: Bruce Edgar
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 14:46
The loss of a £8500 travel/match official expenses grant for this season will hurt more than the 5 point deduction. Seems a bit harsh for an error that was made but couldn’t be corrected once submitted. 


Posted By: backrowb
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 15:00
Just remember....REFU Mission is.....The purpose of the plan is 'to encourage rugby, and its values, to flourish across England' 

Numpties.  This is beyond harsh for Rams


Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 15:01
Punished more than Leeds and for an admin error, you couldn’t make this stuff up

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So many Christians not enough Lions


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 15:02
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

Punished more than Leeds and for an admin error, you couldn’t make this stuff up


Indeed!

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RAID ON


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 15:12
Good grief. I fail to understand the thinking behind this. A mistake in completing a form is very easy to make. The consequences are out of all proportion to the 'offence'.
I am not a Rams supporter but I do admire them for their achievements.


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pappashanga


Posted By: Jester10
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 15:37
I've had the misfortune of having to use GMS this season. It has one thing in common with the RFU....................................... 

........... both unfit for purpose. 


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Enjoying life!


Posted By: Shamrose
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 16:08
There was another thread about how the RFU could save money and I suggested looking at the amount of money they throw at Barrister's and QC's which is fully supported by a sentence in the statement which states
The case involved two hearings in London (on 10 October 2019 and 13 January 2020) before an RFU disciplinary panel of three independent barristers at which the RFU was represented by a QC.
 
I doubt the estimated loss of £8,500 would even be half of what it cost to run this ludicrous case. Hope this makes it into The Rugby Paper as it is sheer victimisation of grass roots clubs and done at a great cost


Posted By: Sarfender
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 16:37
Is it any wonder clubs have difficulty in finding volunteers when they have to deal with jumped up jobs worths like the RFU? Shamrose is also spot on re the cost of this disgraceful episode.


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 16:43
There is so much I could say but the Executive have agreed that the statement on our website is the end of the matter ....

Thanks for everyone who has posted supportive messages on here, it is appreciated.


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 16:44
Shamrose you are right, unless these chaps gave their services free. I just saw a pig flying past my window.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 16:55
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

Shamrose you are right, unless these chaps gave their services free. I just saw a pig flying past my window.


The figures involved would make you weep and cry with frustration for something that was not even about us gaining an advantage on the pitch .....


Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 16:58
A Junior team I help manage had another cup games score credited against it on GMS earlier this season. That was done by the RFU themselves and it took 2 weeks to get sorted. 

Not noticed any strict liability and payment coming our way from the RFU for their admin error

If you are going to have a strict liability policy you need to be dam sure your own house is in order first - and nobody has ever used the words "robust" or "intuitive" whilst discussing GMS ever.

I bet there is an awful lot of tongue biting going on at Rams at present, kudos on them for realising sometimes you can be 100% right but have no way of winning the argument


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 17:02
When dealing with big organisations of any sort, they can make mistakes with impunity, and if you make one, you're for it.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 17:04
Why would you need a QC to deal with a mistake on a form? Mad.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Jester10
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 17:06
I suspect that the RFU are more concerned that their all expenses paid junket to Rome may be cancelled, more than the fact they've blown probably £20k plus to recover £8.5k and five points. What a sustainable business model they run! 





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Enjoying life!


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 17:30
Originally posted by Jester10 Jester10 wrote:

I suspect that the RFU are more concerned that their all expenses paid junket to Rome may be cancelled, more than the fact they've blown probably £20k plus to recover £8.5k and five points. What a sustainable business model they run! 





Paul, you're not even close to the correct amount!


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 17:42
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

Why would you need a QC to deal with a mistake on a form? Mad.


Because when staring down the barrel of a gun and facing defeat, to quote a famous line from a film ... "he sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue" .... you NEVER EVER win the war with the RFU, you'll win battles along the way but you can never beat them .... unless of course you're PRL!


Posted By: Bill Sley
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 17:47
Originally posted by Jester10 Jester10 wrote:

I suspect that the RFU are more concerned that their all expenses paid junket to Rome may be cancelled, more than the fact they've blown probably £20k plus to recover £8.5k and five points. What a sustainable business model they run! 




I was going to ask whether we could submit an FOI request for info....then I remembered we (the clubs) are actually the owners/shareholders, so presume we can demand the info somehow?


Posted By: stonehousealbion
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 09:11
Fully justified - there's no place for this kind of wilful mismanagement in the (soon to be evisicerated) Champ. Wink

Here's my pitch:

How about a follow-up to "Twenty Twelve" and " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baJNxbmtYdY" rel="nofollow - W1A "? "FU", a fly on the wall documentary about a bunch of clueless, inept, shoulder-sloping OFs in a state of the art stadium and their quest to systematically dismantle a significant part of the nation's sporting legacy. Yes/no - brilliant!

All (6 figure - minimum, USD only) payments for plot development to:

SHATV (Offshore) Productions, Untraceable House, George Town, The Cayman Islands.


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Come cheer up, my lads - 'tis to glory we steer!


Posted By: Dalrymple
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 13:24
Does anyone have a link to where the Panel's judgment in this matter might be found?


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 13:39
https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/54/5450871e-d791-4fba-be9b-3896131a7ed0/RamsRegulation7JudgmentFeb20.pdf%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/54/5450871e-d791-4fba-be9b-3896131a7ed0/RamsRegulation7JudgmentFeb20.pdf

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pappashanga


Posted By: Jester10
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 13:41
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/54/5450871e-d791-4fba-be9b-3896131a7ed0/RamsRegulation7JudgmentFeb20.pdf%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/54/5450871e-d791-4fba-be9b-3896131a7ed0/RamsRegulation7JudgmentFeb20.pdf

Link doesn't work? (A bit like the RFU!) 



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Enjoying life!


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 14:10
I found it by searching   'RFU disciplinary'. There's a long list and you need to go back to September 2019.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 14:35
http://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/54/5450871e-d791-4fba-be9b-3896131a7ed0/RamsRegulation7JudgmentFeb20.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/54/5450871e-d791-4fba-be9b-3896131a7ed0/RamsRegulation7JudgmentFeb20.pdf

The other link had a rogue space at the end that became a %20


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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Jester10
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 18:31
Thanks Camquin. Just read through the details. Lets hope the RFU enjoy their power. 

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Enjoying life!


Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 20:38
😡😡So an administrative error by an over worked volunteer. Costs the club they love 5pts and a loss of funding. 
 The RFU appear to want limited payments to players but then expect unpaid volunteers often with little authority but with mountains of responsibility to carry the can.
I can tell you from first hand experience that GMS has got floors. 
I have altered shirt numbers before a match only to find they had not been registered by GMS,luckily I had a screen shot.
At one point I could have altered most other clubs registered players as I had access to their page.I have also ticked FR only to  find it removed post match. Finally have confirmed match detail to find it on GMS on Monday un confirmed. 
Angry



Posted By: Bill Sley
Date Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 05:18
I’ve never ‘had the pleasure’ of using the GMS but Thunderbird’s comments (posting above) reminded me of the Post Office’s faulty Horizon system: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50741916" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50741916

My only experience of using the RFU’s IT (like the majority of us) is the website (and previous versions) which is woeful …..and as new versions have appeared, seems to have got worse as opposed to ‘new improved’. I’ve completely given up on finding fixtures/results via rfu.com (what else could ordinary people want to find out on a regular basis??) and reverted to waiting for The Rugby Paper on Sunday or a trawl through club twitter postings.

Given the above, it seems that there’s every chance that Rams might actually have submitted correctly…………….but even if they didn’t, the judgement (jeez….how can the report be THAT long) smacks of playing at being judges at a murder trial.

Surely for something that the RFU think is SOOO important, there should be either a way to correct or an off-line facility for a draft version. It’s almost like they’re trying to trick people.


Posted By: dwinpenn
Date Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 05:55
The RFUs ability to implement an IT system for the game is worse than the NHS Single Patient Record programme which was cancelled because it was too hard!
Don’t forget GMS is the SECOND crack at a system to register players, results and fixtures!


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Dave Winpenny
"Confused and old"


Posted By: quercynomad
Date Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 10:11
The supposed failings or not of GMS are to me, a bit of a red herring. Not passing comment on the rights/wrongs of it, but the salient bit that all clubs should note is the points around minute taking and governance of committee/board meetings. Originally all of the full point deduction of 20 points was suspended but the disciplinary committee concluded that Rams had effectively fabricated meeting minutes to support their argument post-event and that alone was the aggravating factor that led to the immediate deduction of 5 points.


Posted By: Shamrose
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 10:25
Originally posted by quercynomad quercynomad wrote:

The supposed failings or not of GMS are to me, a bit of a red herring. Not passing comment on the rights/wrongs of it, but the salient bit that all clubs should note is the points around minute taking and governance of committee/board meetings. Originally all of the full point deduction of 20 points was suspended but the disciplinary committee concluded that Rams had effectively fabricated meeting minutes to support their argument post-event and that alone was the aggravating factor that led to the immediate deduction of 5 points.

Being an aplologst for the RFU is not a good thing when the facts do not add up. in their judgement they say
  1. Inconclusion,theRFUacceptedthattheClub’serrorincompletingtheDeclarationwasneitherdeliberatenor Lovely and that the Club fell below the relevant Payment Threshold. It was, however, said that the manner in which the Club handled its compliance with Regulation 7, and the completion, review, approval and then signing of the Declaration, was serially negligent. The Club’s conduct in this regard, it argued, can only be described as lamentable. None of the officers, nor any of the members of the wider Committee (let alone the Committee collectively) took proper responsibility for the Club’s obligations in this regard. At every possible stage the Club was careless.

  2. The RFU added that this was not a criticism of the initial inadvertent error by Ms Tichband but of the lackadaisical approach the senior officers of the Club subsequently took in relation to their duties.

    if the RFU want a level playing feild they should afford clubs a QC to defend themselves. As Clive Norling says they will never lose as they hold all the cards and have money to burn. The judgement reads ike a school teachers report not of a body that is mean to be supportong the game



Posted By: quercynomad
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 11:13
Originally posted by Shamrose Shamrose wrote:

Being an aplologst for the RFU is not a good thing when the facts do not add up. 

No-one is being an apologist for the RFU - whilst the report says that the 20 point deduction is due to the RFU's (and the panel's) conclusion that the approach of the Rams board was lamentable; the specific conclusion of why they decided to make an immediate point deduction was because the panel concluded that the board minutes were written post event to support a narrative (indeed my read is that the RFU had asked for a 20 point deduction fully suspended and it was the panel that changed that). As I said, whether that is right or wrong that is what the report says. 

The key takeaway for me is that anyone who is involved in management of a rugby club should be thinking about how their own governance would look if put under a similar spotlight. I would argue that the bar they (RFU) are judging against is inappropriate for the vast majority of rugby clubs that are largely run by volunteers.



Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 12:31
Originally posted by quercynomad quercynomad wrote:

Originally posted by Shamrose Shamrose wrote:

Being an aplologst for the RFU is not a good thing when the facts do not add up. 


No-one is being an apologist for the RFU - whilst the report says that the 20 point deduction is due to the RFU's (and the panel's) conclusion that the approach of the Rams board was lamentable; the specific conclusion of why they decided to make an immediate point deduction was because the panel concluded that the board minutes were written post event to support a narrative (indeed my read is that the RFU had asked for a 20 point deduction fully suspended and it was the panel that changed that). As I said, whether that is right or wrong that is what the report says. 

The key takeaway for me is that anyone who is involved in management of a rugby club should be thinking about how their own governance would look if put under a similar spotlight. I would argue that the bar they (RFU) are judging against is inappropriate for the vast majority of rugby clubs that are largely run by volunteers.



And a lot higher than the RFU apply to their own governance and decision making

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RAID ON


Posted By: backrowb
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 12:34
Lets hope the RFU don't apply similar penalties to their own England Mens side, based on the RFU's fiscal performance. We may well get expelled from the 6 nations.


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 13:07
Originally posted by quercynomad quercynomad wrote:

The supposed failings or not of GMS are to me, a bit of a red herring. Not passing comment on the rights/wrongs of it, but the salient bit that all clubs should note is the points around minute taking and governance of committee/board meetings. Originally all of the full point deduction of 20 points was suspended but the disciplinary committee concluded that Rams had effectively fabricated meeting minutes to support their argument post-event and that alone was the aggravating factor that led to the immediate deduction of 5 points.


Ok, didn't want to post this but it needs to be said ...

The volunteer on her night off, came to the club where the committee were due to meet for their normal monthly meeting, there is a bar next door to the room where the committee sit and have their meeting, it takes all of 10 paces to get to this room. One of the executive had already discussed with the volunteer what the correct answers needed to be, so as she didn't have to spend any longer at the club than necessary (currently somewhere between 20/30 hours a week), the form was signed before they went into the room and sat down around a table. The only people in the club that night were the committee, the volunteer and a bar manager. In the minutes of the meeting, it was noted that the form had been signed, it is a mute point when does the committee meeting formally start .... the RFU have argued that if the committee had been sat around a table in a room, as opposed to stood in a larger room next door, the mistake would have been noticed .....that is the "technicality" that has stopped RAMS appealing ... I'm sure the RFU will be delighted to hear that the volunteer has been on medication for the last 6 months due to the stress of the situation and went to games hoping the team would lose, so as the potential 20 point deduction didn't stop the team getting promoted to The Championship .... well done RFU, hope you feel proud about that!

On the above basis, what room were the RFU Management Board sat in when the refurbishment of the East Stand went over budget by an eye watering £30 MILLION POUNDS? That is the rank hypocrisy that leaves community clubs thinking that the RFU are not here to help them in any shape or form but just to do everything they can to stop any club that has aspirations to better themselves and the community (remember them RFU, they fill Twickenham stadium for you at the obscene prices you charge i.e. £7 for a pint of beer!)

I was involved with the RFU since 1991-2017 and was an employee from 1996, since there is absolutely no possibility of being in that position again, I can say what I really think ... See U Next Tuesday time and time again


Posted By: Puli.
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 13:41
Clive Norling 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

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If Rugby is the game they play in Heaven ..... Why does it hurt like Hell when you retire?


Posted By: backrowb
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 13:48
Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 

On the above basis, what room were the RFU Management Board sat in when the refurbishment of the East Stand went over budget by an eye watering £30 MILLION POUNDS? That is the rank hypocrisy that leaves community clubs thinking that the RFU are not here to help them in any shape or form but just to do everything they can to stop any club that has aspirations to better themselves and the community (remember them RFU, they fill Twickenham stadium for you at the obscene prices you charge i.e. £7 for a pint of beer!)

Yup, and how sad is that. If I were a Rams member i would be be beyond furious.


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 22:07
Further to my previous post, I find reading page after page of judgement really boring, but I decided to drill down and read the majority of the pages ...and came across this lovely sentence from the Governing Body ...

It was, however, said that the manner
in which the Club handled its compliance with Regulation 7, and the completion, review, approval and then
signing of the Declaration, was serially negligent.


Quite laughable, so it's obviously not serially negligent to go over budget by £30 million pounds on a capital expenditure and then lie by issuing a statement that this was "because of increased safety costs because of the Grenfell tragedy" .....

Every single member of the RFU Council should hang their heads in shame, that they have allowed the "professional" side of the company, to agree a deal with PRL, that is frankly not far short of criminal, allow an ex CEO to pay himself a kings ransom, promoted a FD to CEO who was so far out of his depth and the pair of them to authorise the refurbishment of a stand that was only 18 years old and because NFL (American Football) said they wouldn't play any games there unless the hospitality was significantly improved ...

It's also not seriously negligent to make a massive profit on RWC2015, promise to engage in many projects with the community side of the game e.g. 100 x 4G pitches and fail to deliver on them and just use the excuse of "we've run out of money" ... oh, that's ok then, you make promises to your members and then let them down ...

Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline, Sportsmanship. just words RFU, it's about time Council Members and the paid staff start delivering on the above and if you can't/won't then resign and lets get people in who care about the game from top to bottom ....

Breaking news, our fantastically funded 7's team, have come 7th in Los Angeles, losing along the way to Spain & Ireland, impressive ..... NOT





Posted By: backrowb
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 22:14
 And breathe Clive 


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 22:27
Originally posted by backrowb backrowb wrote:

 And breathe Clive 


.... they've got me going, there are so many stories that happened in my 25+ years with them, but this has tipped me over the edge ... to have our female volunteer crying on my shoulder, if they could see the effect it's had on her but others who are paid to do a job by the RFU and just f**k it up and nothing happens .... they are so desperate to save money where they can and they pontificate as we're some blue chip company with hundreds of paid employees, the only paid member of staff we have non playing is the clubhouse manager, every other person is a volunteer ..... sorry, the part time bar/catering staff are paid


Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 10:21
I know it's after the horse has bolted , but we now screen shot anything important regarding GMS. It is not to be trusted!!

    I really feel for your volunteer I have been in similar situations, luckily with no consequences but a lot of worry. 
  
So the RFU appear to want amateurs players with a professional commitee, so volunteer players only.  


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 11:03
Originally posted by Thunderbird Thunderbird wrote:

I know it's after the horse has bolted , but we now screen shot anything important regarding GMS. It is not to be trusted!!

    I really feel for your volunteer I have been in similar situations, luckily with no consequences but a lot of worry. 
  
So the RFU appear to want amateurs players with a professional commitee, so volunteer players only.  


Thanks for the support ....


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 11:30
Clive,

the RFU are an incompetent organisation and seem to operate non of the values they espouse. It is an absolute disgrace that they can operate such double standards and penalise your club and an unpaid volunteer in the way that they have.

I bet non of the fat cats at the RFU have any idea of the effort and money that unpaid volunteers put into community clubs..................why would they know........they never look beyond elite rugby and the Premiership.


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 12:41
As an interesting side issue, when we put our car in the garage Labour is charged around £70 per hour, call the boiler man out it’s £60 per hour etc. What price a volunteer at any club across the country is putting in. My hours range from 14-25 (roughly) on any week depending on whether we are home or away so give an average cost of £30ph ( I don’t know what companies work out the cost per employee is these days) per hour it would cost my club £420- £750 per week average that at £600 then that equates to £2400 per 4 week month and then £24000 per 10 month season and I am only 1 of several that put lots of time into maintaining a team and facilities in Nat 1. I am in a fortunate position that I can give the time freely so it isn’t an issue for me but this may not always be the case everywhere


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 12:43
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Clive,

the RFU are an incompetent organisation and seem to operate non of the values they espouse. It is an absolute disgrace that they can operate such double standards and penalise your club and an unpaid volunteer in the way that they have.

I bet non of the fat cats at the RFU have any idea of the effort and money that unpaid volunteers put into community clubs..................why would they know........they never look beyond elite rugby and the Premiership.


Eddie, thanks for your continued support, look forward to visiting Caldy next season ...

The judgement is quite clever really, the panel have found that our volunteer is completely blameless but the executive are to blame ... but those of us at the club know that the said volunteer has handled all player registration issues without any incident for the last 10 years and knows far more about player registration administration side than any of the committee (and at times London Irish!), so when said volunteer puts a document in front of them, they would have been trusting her judgement totally .... it is what it is and we move on ... as a club we always thought that Richmond were tremendously hard done by and didn't deserve not to be in The Championship, but any lingering hope we had (and it was very, very, very small) of getting promoted went out the window on Wednesday morning ....


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 13:03
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

As an interesting side issue, when we put our car in the garage Labour is charged around £70 per hour, call the boiler man out it’s £60 per hour etc. What price a volunteer at any club across the country is putting in. My hours range from 14-25 (roughly) on any week depending on whether we are home or away so give an average cost of £30ph ( I don’t know what companies work out the cost per employee is these days) per hour it would cost my club £420- £750 per week average that at £600 then that equates to £2400 per 4 week month and then £24000 per 10 month season and I am only 1 of several that put lots of time into maintaining a team and facilities in Nat 1. I am in a fortunate position that I can give the time freely so it isn’t an issue for me but this may not always be the case everywhere


Rabbie, on Saturday morning between 07.00 - 11.00 we had over 20 volunteers, including over 50% of the Executive (including the CEO, Chairman and Secretary), out on the pitch, forking it, sweeping water off so as we could get the game on, if we hadn't have played, that would have been the 3rd week off for our 1st team.

Perhaps the committees time could have been better spent studying player registration documents and GMS, we wouldn't have had a game, 500 spectators would have nothing to look at, there would have been no revenue generated but the RFU would have been happy that all documentation was correct!

Yes, looking at it that way, they have a point .... we'll have of course possibly 30% less clubs in 20 years time with that attitude but the free bar for the Council members (and their 8 guests) that operates before and after every Test match, will still be in operation, need to make sure the important things in rugby are carried on, even if the ship is sinking, standards, standards .....


Posted By: Shamrose
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 13:52
It is very sad when volunteers get treated in this way and I hope she gets over it in time.

We do have to look at the set up of the whole disciplinary process as you might as well be the defendant in the Japanese legal system

So for this case the RFU appointed a QC to represent them. The question is why and who makes that decision?

In addition the independent panel was made up of 3 barristers as well as secretary and with another RFU employee there as well.

Now I have recently dealt with a  property lawyer who's rate was £350 per hour  so I would imagine the QC and Barristers would be north of this

Bearing in mind this convened on two occasions this would require travel time and to and from the venue for all concerned  which is also chargeable. There is then the time taken to write up the judgement

Lets be generous and say there was a 7 chargeable hours per person although i would guess it would be more

3 Barristers £500 per hour = £10,500
QC £750 per hour £5,250

So we are up to over £15k of money the RFU supposedly doesn't have

I presume the costs of the Disciplinary panel just gets hidden in the RFU the salary figures and we will never know the true cost but it does show how little attention is given to spending by the RFU



Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 14:12
Shamrose , you forgot to factor in the venue for the hearing , usually in a very nice 5star central London hotel. it's not as is the RFU don't have a perfectly good central london meeting place.LOL


Posted By: Shamrose
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 14:23
That what I thought but it was the Holiday Inn Bloomsbury, so probably not bad


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 14:43
Originally posted by Shamrose Shamrose wrote:

That what I thought but it was the Holiday Inn Bloomsbury, so probably not bad


It's their regular London venue, been there before myself, I would suggest it's deliberately there as opposed to TW1 so as easier for a QC to get to after finishing in chambers .... RAMS estimated circa 20k for RFU costs ....


Posted By: The Joy of (Level) 7
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 17:13
The RFU’s “sledgehammer to crack a nut” approach to disciplinary matters, in terms of the resources consumed by them has always seemed odd to me. As others have noted they appear to be totally disproportionate to the “misdemeanour”. On reading the posts above it doesn’t seem that they make any attempt to differentiate between the duty of care/responsibility the RAMS board have regarding a simple administrative error and that of the board of a PLC when truly important decisions and actions are taken. This lack of empathy can only lead to excessive costs on all sides.

Why doesn’t someone write to them asking why they feel the need to take this approach and to be so over-represented legally, and at the same time how much it has cost them in the last financial year?


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TJOS


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 17:22
Originally posted by The Joy of (Level) 7 The Joy of (Level) 7 wrote:

The RFU’s “sledgehammer to crack a nut” approach to disciplinary matters, in terms of the resources consumed by them has always seemed odd to me. As others have noted they appear to be totally disproportionate to the “misdemeanour”. On reading the posts above it doesn’t seem that they make any attempt to differentiate between the duty of care/responsibility the RAMS board have regarding a simple administrative error and that of the board of a PLC when truly important decisions and actions are taken. This lack of empathy can only lead to excessive costs on all sides.

Why doesn’t someone write to them asking why they feel the need to take this approach and to be so over-represented legally, and at the same time how much it has cost them in the last financial year?



Probably, because it would be a waste of paper, ink and postage - I seriously doubt they would answer.

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RAID ON


Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 19:09
Originally posted by The Joy of (Level) 7 The Joy of (Level) 7 wrote:

The RFU’s “sledgehammer to crack a nut” approach to disciplinary matters, in terms of the resources consumed by them has always seemed odd to me. As others have noted they appear to be totally disproportionate to the “misdemeanour”. On reading the posts above it doesn’t seem that they make any attempt to differentiate between the duty of care/responsibility the RAMS board have regarding a simple administrative error and that of the board of a PLC when truly important decisions and actions are taken. This lack of empathy can only lead to excessive costs on all sides.

Why doesn’t someone write to them asking why they feel the need to take this approach and to be so over-represented legally, and at the same time how much it has cost them in the last financial year?



Because that is how they approach the clubs full stop. They DO NOT differentiate between a Premiership Club and a Level 12 club, you're a club/business, then your Executive should act accordingly.

The costs to them are not up for debate, it's about winning and it's about clubs acting in a certain way when in breach of RFU regulations, however, the same is not applied to the RFU because they can never breach any regulations (except World Rugby).

The Management Board can act domestically in a cavalier/fiscally outrageous/do as we say, not as we do manner and no one holds them to account and if you tried to, I would suggest you win the lottery before you did.

To give you one more example of the arrogance in which they behave and then you might see why I write like I do ....

In 1999 with the RFU worried that the clubs might break away and form their own league, in effect, leaving the RFU with no top quality players to choose from, the Elite referees at the time were asked to sign a contract of employment. It was made clear that not to sign would restrict our ability to referee Premiership rugby. We all duly signed. The contract was totally over the top, as it was written for England players, so 95% of it did not apply to referees bu hey ho, we signed and in a stroke, the RFU nipped in the bud any chance of a breakaway, no officials, no game.

Fast forward to about 2006, the payment of referees was now in full swing, you were paid a match fee, travelling expenses, overnight stay when required etc etc ... however, of the referees from 1999 who had signed then, only one remained, yours truly. To cut a long story short, it came to light that the 1999 contract differed quite financially significantly to the one of 2006 but it seemed no one in the RFU had remembered and my colleagues started to complain that they were earning less than yours truly ...

1) First of all the RFU didn't believe I'd signed a contract in 1999, they had no record of it in the HR department
2) I produced the contract
3) They tried to claim it wasn't a contract because no one from the RFU had signed it ... oh come on guys, do any of you know nothing about contracts of employment, you're the RFU for gods sake (of course they did, they were just trying it on, as they always do if they can get away with it)
4) Having accepted the contract was legally binding, they offered me the new one, which was very similar in financial remuneration but not exactly the same and had a potential of earning £2000 less a year (a bonus paid for your ranking position)
5) I refused to sign it
6) After a period of about 2 months where there was a stand off, I received the following phone call one night from my referee manager ..."this is not coming from me, it's coming from the very top, you need to sign the new contract, and if you don't sign in 7 days, I've been told not to appoint you to any more Premiership games until you do"
Me "that's constructive dismissal, you can't do that"
Manager "I'm just the messenger and I'm not happy having to have this conversation" ....

Subsequently, I signed the new contract 5 days later .... I would easily have won an industrial tribunal claim, as a high ranking Council Member told me about 6 years ago and I knew that anyway and if I had done that, the RFU would never have let me near a Premiership ground again, because analysis of refereeing is very subjective, they could have used lack of performance as an excuse (as they've done with two previous FULL time referees) and I couldn't have challenged it ..... and they so don't like people who aren't "yes" men! ....

As I've said previously, you NEVER BEAT the RFU, you win small battles along the way but they always win the war ....


Posted By: Oldman1
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 20:03
Clive, I'm sure your experience is very similar to many others. Rams have been badly treated, as you say an organisation run by volunteers judged on professional standards  (although those "professional" standards can be far lower than found in many Clubs!).
The only way things will change is for there to be a revolt by the majority off the clubs affiliated to the RFU. This will not happen as most clubs do not realise what is happening, and those that do are very much in the minority.
The RFU, and World Rugby are only interested in the Professional game. I quote Wayne Barnes on BT sport last evening. "We want the ball in play more, we want spectators to see the ball in play." The Rugby I grew up with and love is about the players not the spectators. Barns talked about a meeting in Paris to discuss the laws. He mentioned coaches, referees and players who would be there. I wonder about the logic of not inviting players, coaches or referees from the "lower" reaches of the game. I question a third team prop at my club as to if he wanted the ball in play more. His answer can be summerised as "No".
Perhaps I am wrong but I suspect nothing will come of this, players will leave the game, clubs will fold. But the County representatives will still get there freebies.


Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 20:12
I'm so sorry to be reading all this, there've been so many cases of this at various levels below the top one, and the RFU give you FA help/guidance ahead of charging you with whatever offence, which you hardly ever win. And top level offenders with paid staff are treated no differently, and that's supposedly fair...

Think the RFU Council met today - wonder if this topic and/or Championship funding was raised?



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