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Ringfencing is here

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Forum Name: The Championship
Forum Description: Discuss the 12 clubs forming the English Championship.
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Printed Date: 25 Sep 2020 at 22:44
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Topic: Ringfencing is here
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Subject: Ringfencing is here
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 15:53
https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-promotion-relegation-ring-fencing-championship-565755%20" rel="nofollow - https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-promotion-relegation-ring-fencing-championship-565755

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Remember Wakefield RFC



Replies:
Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 16:24
Link doesn't work, at least not for me.


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"What I need is a strong drink and a peer group"


Posted By: bluesladyfan
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 16:39
Originally posted by CJB1 CJB1 wrote:

Link doesn't work, at least not for me.
Nope, not here either



Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 16:46
Richard's link has a trailing space that is causing it to break.

http://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-promotion-relegation-ring-fencing-championship-565755" rel="nofollow - https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-promotion-relegation-ring-fencing-championship-565755




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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 18:54
Is it April the first, what a load of rubbish, Even with £600k the championship is broke as that’s what they currently get, and you all are moaning non stop about being skint, it’s all about the top protecting themselves and the 2nd tier trying to reduce the shafting. Who are the 6 universities, as without huge input from prem friends and government funded facilities Hartpury would have failed Loughborough tie up wit Leicester saW them relegated so who are the other 4. I believe Exeter Uni are run by chiefs, Bath funnily by Bath. Why should the likes of Ealing be shafted with the work they have put in and the tie up with Brunel University. It really makes me angry when I read such article🤬 it’s almost as if rugby doesn’t exist outside the top 2 leagues

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So many Christians not enough Lions


Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 18:55
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Richard's link has a trailing space that is causing it to break.

http://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-promotion-relegation-ring-fencing-championship-565755" rel="nofollow - https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-promotion-relegation-ring-fencing-championship-565755



This is so daft that I suspect that this is a clever negotiating position by which the Champ clubs will be able to say "We have provided you an offer to end promotion/relegation." That way they have set their stake in the ground.


Posted By: PlangentThrowback
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 19:01
I can't help wondering why this supposedly unanimously backed report is being leaked piecemeal like this.  What page are we up to out of 76?


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 19:02
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

Is it April the first, what a load of rubbish, Even with £600k the championship is broke as that’s what they currently get, and you all are moaning non stop about being skint, it’s all about the top protecting themselves and the 2nd tier trying to reduce the shafting. Who are the 6 universities, as without huge input from prem friends and government funded facilities Hartpury would have failed Loughborough tie up wit Leicester saW them relegated so who are the other 4. I believe Exeter Uni are run by chiefs, Bath funnily by Bath. Why should the likes of Ealing be shafted with the work they have put in and the tie up with Brunel University. It really makes me angry when I read such article🤬 it’s almost as if rugby doesn’t exist outside the top 2 leagues
Clap


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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 20:29
The RFU wanted a 2nd tier professional league but wouldn't/couldn't fund it.
The RFU then start slashing the funding to the Championship to a level that wouldn't fund most teams travel.
The RFU then commission CG to come up with this b****hit report


Why would the Championship clubs agree to it? Do they believe the funding will cover the costs and leave them some for travel?

Who is going to fund the 6 Academies - the RFU?

With their record of U-turns it is bound to end up in a disaster.

I suspect the only thing to actually come out of it will be Ring-fencing the Premiership, so why have a 76 page report to hide it in?

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RAID ON


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 20:50
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:



I suspect the only thing to actually come out of it will be Ring-fencing the Premiership, so why have a 76 page report to hide it in?

Standard "Yes, Prime Minister" tactic. Bury the bad news in the middle of a lot of dull and boring drivel. China did it in the 70s in order to get Hong Kong off the decolonisation list.


Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 21:25
Sigh. Another thread in the Championship section of RM where supporters of non-Championship clubs line up to schlagg off the Championship and repeat how broken it is and how much better things are at their level and zzzzzzzzzzzz

Key stumbling block highlighted in bold below...

The English Championship plan is costed at £15.6million in its first year, including £600,000 per club for player wages, compared with the Premiership spend of around 12 times that amount. It is likely to require financial input from the RFU. 


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 22:03
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

Sigh. Another thread in the Championship section of RM where supporters of non-Championship clubs line up to schlagg off the Championship and repeat how broken it is and how much better things are at their level and zzzzzzzzzzzz<div id="ypm-extension" ="ypm-extension"="">

Key stumbling block highlighted in bold below...

<span style="font-family: -apple-system, MacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; font-size: medium; letter-spacing: 0.2px;">The English Championship plan is costed at £15.6million in its first year, including £600,000 per club for player wages, compared with the Premiership spend of around 12 times that amount. It is likely to require financial input from the RFU. </span>

<div id="ypm-extension" ="ypm-extension">


Not sure why you are having a go at people who have an interest in all levels of Rugby - the Championship is not the preserve of the 12 clubs currently in it.

I believe people are having a go at the RFU rather than the championship - you can only work with the money available and within the framework they are given.

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RAID ON


Posted By: PlangentThrowback
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 07:10
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

The RFU wanted a 2nd tier professional league but wouldn't/couldn't fund it.
The RFU then start slashing the funding to the Championship to a level that wouldn't fund most teams travel.
The RFU then commission CG to come up with this b****hit report


Why would the Championship clubs agree to it? Do they believe the funding will cover the costs and leave them some for travel?

Who is going to fund the 6 Academies - the RFU?

With their record of U-turns it is bound to end up in a disaster.

I suspect the only thing to actually come out of it will be Ring-fencing the Premiership, so why have a 76 page report to hide it in?

Have you read any of the reports about this issue? The RFU didn't commission this proposal: the Championship did and unanimously agreed it before presenting it to the RFU  and Premiership. If you're going to get on your high horse about this then at least make yourself aware of what horse you're getting on. As for funding the new academy structure, yes the RFU and Premiership are supposed to do that. Ring-fencing? You're quite right a moratorium on promotion is part of it, but sadly for you this is a proposal from the Championship.

Whether it is any good is an entirely different matter. 


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 09:41
The thing I do not like about this report is that it has been developed by "the 11 Championship clubs"
There is no such thing.
There are "the 11 clubs who happen to be in the championship this season"
In five years time it is likely 4 of them will no longer be i the Championship.
And of those 4 I suspect 2 will not be in National 1 either and will have dropped further down the pyramid.

As I do not have a crystal ball I had to use a mirror.
So yes I am looking at Yorkshire, Moseley, Plymouth and Rotherham.
Five years ago the championship still features Bristol and Worcester.

In fact of the eleven it featured: Scottish, Nottingham, Jersey, Pirates, Doncaster and Bedford.



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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 10:07
I'm surprised no one is commenting on this line

Quote Promotion from National League One to the second division would also be suspended for at least two seasons.

Are we going to see a domino effect? Will the lower leagues draw up their drawbridges and claim its for the best of the game?

Angry


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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 10:24
The NCA are one of the stakeholders with whom EG is discussing this plan, or should that be kite? I agree that looking forward things will need to change but these proposals are so radical it looks to me as if they want to achieve half of this but announce an outlandish, unacceptable proposal to get people moving to a halfway point that is acceptable.

That said, the new NCA Chair has made it clear that he sees ground standards as an important element of promoting rugby at Levels 3/4 so why not at Level 2?


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 10:44
All looks a bit far fetched to me.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 12:10
Richard - I had missed that line.

I think they have looked at Rotherham and realised that without RFU money, there fate lies somewhere between that and manchester or even Leeds (who I have no confidence will raise a team).

And actually you can add Otley Newbury, Sedgley Park and Esher.

Clubs get addicted to the heroin of RFU funding.
If they want to play in a League without relegation Surrey 4 is over there ->.




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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 13:04
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Richard - I had missed that line.

I think they have looked at Rotherham and realised that without RFU money, there fate lies somewhere between that and manchester or even Leeds (who I have no confidence will raise a team).

And actually you can add Otley Newbury, Sedgley Park and Esher.

Clubs get addicted to the heroin of RFU funding.
If they want to play in a League without relegation Surrey 4 is over there ->.



I don't know why the RFU don't just say 'lets have a geographical distributed Championship of X teams meeting Y criteria' starting in 2021/22 with clubs bidding to be part. This would be ringfenced for Z years when the bidding reopens. 

In return of meeting the criteria, the clubs would share funding a minimum of £A each - to be know upfront at the time of bidding.

Then these clubs would meet the non performance criteria for future admission to the Premiership.
It would give every club an opportunity and not just those currently keeping the seats warm. 


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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 13:07
You are all making my point a little better than I did although I was a bit peeved at the time of writing but if you go back a little bit Sarries were not a group 1 club, nor Exeter or Worcester so no club deserves the right to be kept in a false position supported by the rest of the rugby community. It wasn’t so long ago that Ealing, Jersey, Hartpury, Scottish, Richmond, Doncaster, Coventry were all fighting to get out of National one at various times so now they are there why should others be stopped from trying to take their place I thought that was the idea of competive sport as most of the current incumbents Have taken the place of another club some did it by a name change Gosforth anyone

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So many Christians not enough Lions


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 13:15
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

You are all making my point a little better than I did although I was a bit peeved at the time of writing but if you go back a little bit Sarries were not a group 1 club, nor Exeter or Worcester so no club deserves the right to be kept in a false position supported by the rest of the rugby community. It wasn’t so long ago that Ealing, Jersey, Hartpury, Scottish, Richmond, Doncaster, Coventry were all fighting to get out of National one at various times so now they are there why should others be stopped from trying to take their place I thought that was the idea of competive sport as most of the current incumbents Have taken the place of another club some did it by a name change Gosforth anyone

It is a point I frequently make elsewhere with supporters of current Premiership clubs. The reply is always "But that was back then and lots of things have changed since" - in reality what they mean is they are currently in the driving seat rather than in the passenger seat. 

But when they are in the passenger seat there is never the demand to ring fence. 

Since the Leagues started ony Leicester, Bath, Gloucester and Wasps have not played outside the top flight. 

I read a statistic that if Brentford are promoted into the Premier League nearly 50% of Football clubs  will have played in that competition since its formation. That is what open promotion and relegation can produce - an opportunity for the best teams of their day to play at the highest level. 

Unfortunately in Rugby we believe that the best teams in 2020 will still be the best teams in 2025. 



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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 13:24
Well put RL. 


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 13:37
RL wrote: "Since the Leagues started only Leicester, Bath, Gloucester and Wasps have not played outside the top flight."
That's a powerful stat. 
Why should every club not be given the chance to aspire to the top league? Ring fencing would kill rugby IMO. The top flight would become a sterile, tedious competition where there would be a lot of  meaningless games. 


Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 13:44
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Richard - I had missed that line.

I think they have looked at Rotherham and realised that without RFU money, there fate lies somewhere between that and manchester or even Leeds (who I have no confidence will raise a team).

And actually you can add Otley Newbury, Sedgley Park and Esher.

Clubs get addicted to the heroin of RFU funding.
If they want to play in a League without relegation Surrey 4 is over there ->.

Also Manchester. 


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Cauliflower ear


Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 13:46
Once all the relevant stake holders are in the premieship then the door will shut , even if they have to expand it.



Posted By: Woody
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 13:54
so whoever comes down next season is stuck for 4 years?
Cant see them voting for that...

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Forever Green.


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 14:41
It's just typical vested interests. The haves always want to keep it.

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pappashanga


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 15:06
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

 The top flight would become a sterile, tedious competition where there would be a lot of  meaningless games. 

as would level 2 if that's being ringfenced at both ends too - but then given the academy draft also being proposed, doesn't that effectively make level 2 the A League rather than "a league" anyway...?



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keep the faith


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 16:00
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

It's just typical vested interests. The haves always want to keep it.
and they usually achieve that.

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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 16:37
Originally posted by Woody Woody wrote:

so whoever comes down next season is stuck for 4 years?
Cant see them voting for that...


Assuming anyone is relegated - I suspect Saracens get promoted and there will be 13 teams in the Premiership

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RAID ON


Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 17:54
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Woody Woody wrote:

so whoever comes down next season is stuck for 4 years?
Cant see them voting for that...


Assuming anyone is relegated - I suspect Saracens get promoted and there will be 13 teams in the Premiership


In that case a second team is looking to get picked up which could be Ealing or Donny . Ealing on what they have spent and Donny looked to have recruited heavily and have the ground to develop and would tick the RFU box of a team in Yorkshire


Posted By: Dan Gleebles
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 18:52
Would Donny or even Ealing want to get smashed every week for years? 


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 19:05
Originally posted by Dan Gleebles Dan Gleebles wrote:

Would Donny or even Ealing want to get smashed every week for years? 
Ealing seem to have have deep enough pockets to avoid that and have a ground capable of development. Donny have a brilliant ground and could easily fill the vacancy created by Yorkies but Pirates want it so badly I hope they get the ticket to the show and it doesn't bankrupt them.

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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2020 at 21:39
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Originally posted by Dan Gleebles Dan Gleebles wrote:

Would Donny or even Ealing want to get smashed every week for years? 
Ealing seem to have have deep enough pockets to avoid that and have a ground capable of development. Donny have a brilliant ground and could easily fill the vacancy created by Yorkies but Pirates want it so badly I hope they get the ticket to the show and it doesn't bankrupt them.
Be careful.  Old Elthamians are currently finding out what happens when Mr Deep Pockets dies unexpectedly and his heirs and successors don't wish to keep up his record of generosity.  

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"What I need is a strong drink and a peer group"


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 06:49
Originally posted by JonDee JonDee wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Woody Woody wrote:

so whoever comes down next season is stuck for 4 years?
Cant see them voting for that...


Assuming anyone is relegated - I suspect Saracens get promoted and there will be 13 teams in the Premiership


In that case a second team is looking to get picked up which could be Ealing or Donny . Ealing on what they have spent and Donny looked to have recruited heavily and have the ground to develop and would tick the RFU box of a team in Yorkshire

Ealing suffers from its location and would be another club in a crowded London market, especially now London Irish are returning to the capital. 

Doncaster, as you say, would tick the box to have a team in Yorkshire.

Cornish Pirates would also expand the geographical remit and if the stadium ever gets built would have a good case. 





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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 07:57
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by JonDee JonDee wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Woody Woody wrote:

so whoever comes down next season is stuck for 4 years?
Cant see them voting for that...


Assuming anyone is relegated - I suspect Saracens get promoted and there will be 13 teams in the Premiership


In that case a second team is looking to get picked up which could be Ealing or Donny . Ealing on what they have spent and Donny looked to have recruited heavily and have the ground to develop and would tick the RFU box of a team in Yorkshire


Ealing suffers from its location and would be another club in a crowded London market, especially now London Irish are returning to the capital. 

Doncaster, as you say, would tick the box to have a team in Yorkshire.

Cornish Pirates would also expand the geographical remit and if the stadium ever gets built would have a good case. 




Agreed Richard both Donny and Pirates would tick the geographical box I still feel Donny at the moment would get the vote as they are a good way to having a stadium of the right size and are in Yorkshire which seems to be the only thing that matters to the RFU


Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 09:44
Ealing must be kicking themselves at not tying up with Brentford FC. I’m not sure what other stadia options they have. The street story is that they have 5 years of guaranteed funding whether their benefactor lives or dies.

I’d prefer to see Pirates get the chance but so much depends on how quickly S4C gets built.

Donny also have a good claim.

Why not take Saracens shares and split them between 2 of that 3. Then Saracens could slip quietly down the Leagues while playing in a park in North London.


Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 14:21
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Ealing must be kicking themselves at not tying up with Brentford FC. I’m not sure what other stadia options they have. The street story is that they have 5 years of guaranteed funding whether their benefactor lives or dies.

I’d prefer to see Pirates get the chance but so much depends on how quickly S4C gets built.

Donny also have a good claim.

Why not take Saracens shares and split them between 2 of that 3. Then Saracens could slip quietly down the Leagues while playing in a park in North London.

I don't think a long term tie up with Brentford is really feasible for Ealing, as Brentford isn't part of Ealing Borough - loathe to throw away 150 years of tradition. Trailfinders are the only professional team in the borough of nearly 400k people, so there is scope to have a reasonable number of fans. I will absolutely say that Irish being so near may siphon some off, but on the other hand, when we last played Irish, we had just shy of 4000 fans at the game, the highest ever attendance at TFSC.
 




Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 14:46
I bet the majority were Irish.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 14:47
I thought London irish were moving to Brentford - after a half season at the Stoop. 

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Blood and Sand


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 16:24
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/english-rugby-shake-up-includes-new-pound12m-television-deal-for-re-modelled-championship/" rel="nofollow - https://www.rugbypass.com/news/english-rugby-shake-up-includes-new-pound12m-television-deal-for-re-modelled-championship/

and RugbyPass has got the full details.

I'm sorry, but this is actually worse than even I thought

 - the Championship to go to 16 teams over 2 years but initially to be sealed off at top and bottom
- 60 academy players to be playing in the Championship at any one time 
- each Championship side to have a squad of 35 of which 12 must be academy players (whose salaries will be paid centrally and not come under a salary cap *minimum* of £600k per season
- the £600k minimum must be spent per team per year on the other 23 players *of which* only 10 players per squad may be over the age of 24.

Meanwhile...

 - the Prem sides would undertake to draft a minimum of 48 players from the Championship every year and undertake to sign no young English player who isn't playing in the Championship

so essentially, let's pull up the draw bridge. Let's gut the clubs below the Championship for every player of any talent who isn't already playing for a championship club, and let's overtly be a nursery league.

It's like the end of the Bridge on the River Kwai - madness....



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keep the faith


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 16:33
Yes too elaborate and a camouflaged ring fence.

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pappashanga


Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 16:40
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

I bet the majority were Irish.

It was about 50:50, though hard to tell in pictures as both teams wear green as their primary colours. If Ealing get 4000 in regularly and half are from the visiting team, I'm not that bothered. More people going to watch Rugby is a good thing to me.


Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 16:47
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/english-rugby-shake-up-includes-new-pound12m-television-deal-for-re-modelled-championship/" rel="nofollow - https://www.rugbypass.com/news/english-rugby-shake-up-includes-new-pound12m-television-deal-for-re-modelled-championship/

and RugbyPass has got the full details.

I'm sorry, but this is actually worse than even I thought

 - the Championship to go to 16 teams over 2 years but initially to be sealed off at top and bottom
- 60 academy players to be playing in the Championship at any one time 
- each Championship side to have a squad of 35 of which 12 must be academy players (whose salaries will be paid centrally and not come under a salary cap *minimum* of £600k per season
- the £600k minimum must be spent per team per year on the other 23 players *of which* only 10 players per squad may be over the age of 24.

Meanwhile...

 - the Prem sides would undertake to draft a minimum of 48 players from the Championship every year and undertake to sign no young English player who isn't playing in the Championship

so essentially, let's pull up the draw bridge. Let's gut the clubs below the Championship for every player of any talent who isn't already playing for a championship club, and let's overtly be a nursery league.

It's like the end of the Bridge on the River Kwai - madness....

The ring-fencing aspect, I could almost stomach.
But this?
If this is adopted, they have killed rugby union for me.
I may just have purchased my last ever season ticket, and that probably for a truncated, largely meaningless 'season'.
I feel slightly cheated, and angry and sad in equal measure.


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Our City,
Our Club


Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 16:48
Alternative view - ringfencing isolates the clowns running the Premiership and Championship from the proper rugby clubs which is very much to the benefit of proper rugby clubs.




Posted By: Dave the Dog
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 17:01
Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

The ring-fencing aspect, I could almost stomach.
But this?
If this is adopted, they have killed rugby union for me.
I may just have purchased my last ever season ticket, and that probably for a truncated, largely meaningless 'season'.
I feel slightly cheated, and angry and sad in equal measure.


The only good news as far as I can see is that it completely unworkable and so won't be adopted.  I actually make it that 168 academy players will be involved with the Championship at any one time, with 60 of those going into a draft and at least 48 being drafted by Premiership sides in December (how does that work with most of the season still to run?)

And what happens if you have 15 decent players in your squad who came up together and all turned 25 at the same time?  Do you say to 5 of them that they'll have to find somewhere else to play as you need to bring in some players who are worse than them, but younger?

I'm not sure why the Championship club committees have given this their backing, unless it's just a negotiating tool - "give us what we really want, or we'll run with this and destroy English rugby..." 

Angry


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 17:11
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Alternative view - ringfencing isolates the clowns running the Premiership and Championship from the proper rugby clubs which is very much to the benefit of proper rugby clubs.



Well not for the first time I'm glad we're not at level 2 at the moment - but I'm really not one of the ones who was being accused earlier in the thread of coming onto the Championship board to crow at the Championship and how bad it is - my (probably slightly broken record) feeling about level 3 being preferable was in large part because I've been convinced for some time that someone was going to try and pull a stunt like this. I just never thought it would be the level 2 clubs in fairness...

But if Covid means money's tight and this could be stomached by the boards as saving enough face I suspect it could be passed at least for consideration.


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keep the faith


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 17:22
And there's me thinking Age discrimination was illegal in the UK.... 

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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 18:13
Excellent point

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pappashanga


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 18:25
Clearly RFU Comps will take it all on-board, meanwhile........

........in 10 Days time RFU Comps will release the proposed Competition structures for 2021/22

Level 3 will remain 16 Teams (old Nat 1)
Level 4 will be 4 x as close to RFU Divisional (Regions) Leagues with 14 Teams in Each (old Nat 2N & 2S - teams from old Level 5 will be "uplifted" to fill in the gaps with a cascade effect from bottom up to re-balance the lower leagues)

Level 5 will be 12 Team Leagues unless regional variations means more/less teams (old Regional Premier)
Level 6 will be 12 Team Leagues
Level 7 down will be 12 Team Leagues or in some Regions 10 Team Leagues or less 

Talk of lower League National Cups comps with  differing structures.

Point 1
2nd XVs of Clubs from Level 3-5 will be allowed to participate in the RFU Leagues with a ceiling of not being able to play higher than Level 7 which will be reviewed after 1st year and which then may rise to Level 6.

Point 2
Don't think this includes any Clubs in the North West outside of the RFU Leagues (ie, Lancashire Lge and North West Lge)

Pretty sure the Clubs in the North rejected Point 1 when the RFU did their "listening surveys" also told that any further planned "discussions" will now NOT take place as planned.

Prove me wrong those in the know........... or wait 10 days!


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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 18:33
Point 1 already happens with the likes of London Scottish, Irish, Welsh (hence how they got to restart in H&M 1 rather than the bottom), Ealing and a lot of the Sussex teams too. 


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 18:53
Hi Robb, think Welsh are Welsh i.e the 1st XV after the collapse of the previous body, aren't Irish Ams a separate entity now? Didn't Scottish rebrand the lowers XVs as the Lions. Allowing lower XVs in the RFu Leagues isn't new (see SW Leagues) in the North it is due to other organised Leagues Comps.

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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 19:26
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Hi Robb, think Welsh are Welsh i.e the 1st XV after the collapse of the previous body, aren't Irish Ams a separate entity now? Didn't Scottish rebrand the lowers XVs as the Lions. Allowing lower XVs in the RFu Leagues isn't new (see SW Leagues) in the North it is due to other organised Leagues Comps.
That's how they got around the rules. London Welsh Amateur were a separate club legally and just adopted the London Welsh name after the liquidation of the original club. Likewise LIARFC and the Scots have done that too. 


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 20:45
Piff Paff, I fear you will be right.
it smacks of doing the very minimum so as not to upset those in power, no need to change the existing divisions of CBs.
However it probably will not actually solve any of the problems.
   


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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 22:49
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Clearly RFU Comps will take it all on-board, meanwhile........

........in 10 Days time RFU Comps will release the proposed Competition structures for 2021/22

Level 3 will remain 16 Teams (old Nat 1)
Level 4 will be 4 x as close to RFU Divisional (Regions) Leagues with 14 Teams in Each (old Nat 2N & 2S - teams from old Level 5 will be "uplifted" to fill in the gaps with a cascade effect from bottom up to re-balance the lower leagues)

Level 5 will be 12 Team Leagues unless regional variations means more/less teams (old Regional Premier)
Level 6 will be 12 Team Leagues
Level 7 down will be 12 Team Leagues or in some Regions 10 Team Leagues or less 

Talk of lower League National Cups comps with  differing structures.

Point 1
2nd XVs of Clubs from Level 3-5 will be allowed to participate in the RFU Leagues with a ceiling of not being able to play higher than Level 7 which will be reviewed after 1st year and which then may rise to Level 6.

Point 2
Don't think this includes any Clubs in the North West outside of the RFU Leagues (ie, Lancashire Lge and North West Lge)

Pretty sure the Clubs in the North rejected Point 1 when the RFU did their "listening surveys" also told that any further planned "discussions" will now NOT take place as planned.

Prove me wrong those in the know........... or wait 10 days!

I won’t claim to be in the know any more than anyone else involved with the NCA but PiffPaff is not entirely right.

Level 3 will be 14 teams; Level 3 will be 3 Leagues of 14 (my suggestion was an M1 League, an M5 League and an M62 League.

2nd and 3rd XVs will be allowed to join the main Leagues with a ceiling of 3 Leagues below their 1st XV - so Richmond play at Level 2, their Vikings at Level 5 and their Saxons at Level 8.

Currently only the SouthWest Division allow 2nd XVs in the main Leagues and then only up to Level 9. 

This is controversial but seen as the best way to get meaningful rugby below 1st XVs.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2020 at 23:48
Eastern Counties, Hampshire and Sussex permit second teams in the county leagues  level 9.



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Blood and Sand


Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 09:37
Surely it would be crazy to introduce the restructured leagues until both the Premiership and Championship have decided their restructure , you could have a situation of Nat 1 going down to 14 teams and relegating 5 clubs then the Championship going up to 16 teams taking 4 from Nat 1 which would reverse the relegation in the previous year, at the same time the Premiership goes up to 14 teams taking 2 from the championship again having a cascade effect on the leagues below. So clubs a level 3/4 will yoyo between leagues and players will never know what level they are playing at.
Please if anyone has any sense (don't hold your breath with the RFU) let us start from the top otherwise will will have so much chaos in the structure for the next 5 years and that on top of Covid could Kill a lot of clubs.   


Posted By: Hopping Mad
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 10:50
The proposed restructure option put before clubs could be changed and be potentially more radical than is currently on the table.

RFU have widened the brief of the committee looking at the league structure. Sweeney and his support have spoken to lots of clubs up and down the pyramid and recognise you can’t look at the league structure in isolation to other issues.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 11:01
You might think that, I could not possibly comment.
Especially as we do not know if all the clubs will survive this season, or lack of one.


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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Neasham
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 12:40
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Clearly RFU Comps will take it all on-board, meanwhile........

........in 10 Days time RFU Comps will release the proposed Competition structures for 2021/22

Level 3 will remain 16 Teams (old Nat 1)
Level 4 will be 4 x as close to RFU Divisional (Regions) Leagues with 14 Teams in Each (old Nat 2N & 2S - teams from old Level 5 will be "uplifted" to fill in the gaps with a cascade effect from bottom up to re-balance the lower leagues)

Level 5 will be 12 Team Leagues unless regional variations means more/less teams (old Regional Premier)
Level 6 will be 12 Team Leagues
Level 7 down will be 12 Team Leagues or in some Regions 10 Team Leagues or less 

Talk of lower League National Cups comps with  differing structures.

Point 1
2nd XVs of Clubs from Level 3-5 will be allowed to participate in the RFU Leagues with a ceiling of not being able to play higher than Level 7 which will be reviewed after 1st year and which then may rise to Level 6.

Point 2
Don't think this includes any Clubs in the North West outside of the RFU Leagues (ie, Lancashire Lge and North West Lge)

Pretty sure the Clubs in the North rejected Point 1 when the RFU did their "listening surveys" also told that any further planned "discussions" will now NOT take place as planned.

Prove me wrong those in the know........... or wait 10 days!

The crucial thing missing from your “leak” is how many leagues there will be at each level. RFU very keen to reduce travel and were promising more closer to home games. 


Posted By: Stoatgobbler
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 13:37
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Hi Robb, think Welsh are Welsh i.e the 1st XV after the collapse of the previous body, aren't Irish Ams a separate entity now? Didn't Scottish rebrand the lowers XVs as the Lions. Allowing lower XVs in the RFu Leagues isn't new (see SW Leagues) in the North it is due to other organised Leagues Comps.
That's how they got around the rules. London Welsh Amateur were a separate club legally and just adopted the London Welsh name after the liquidation of the original club. Likewise LIARFC and the Scots have done that too. 


There was no 'getting around the rules'.
When LW went to the Premiership, that team were the lone entity. They are the ones that disappeared.
The 'original club' was always the other teams.


Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 13:51
If less travel is part of the objectives why not consider Nat 1 to be two conferences North and South, which is what the Championship is discussing. At present Nat 1 is becoming London Dominated and the cost of travel is horrendous for Northern clubs especially if the RFU reduce it further or even cancel it.


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 11:03
More propaganda in favour of ringfencing in TRP today. Lead article is a self interested rant by the Gloucester owner. I suppose he has to protect his business interests.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 16:49
Originally posted by Stoatgobbler Stoatgobbler wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

[
That's how they got around the rules. London Welsh Amateur were a separate club legally and just adopted the London Welsh name after the liquidation of the original club. Likewise LIARFC and the Scots have done that too. 


There was no 'getting around the rules'.
When LW went to the Premiership, that team were the lone entity. They are the ones that disappeared.
The 'original club' was always the other teams.
Just to expand on this, the club (comprising the Amateurs, Occies, women, minis & juniors etc) wasn't liquidated. The professional entity - London Welsh Rugby Football Club Limited - was.  Where you draw the line between the entities is blurred - of course the 1st XV was part of the club, but it was a separate limited company with its own (limited) assets and (extensive) liabilities.  At that point the Amateurs became the defacto 1st XV by virtue of being the most senior team at the club. But good luck unpicking the history of those 20 years between the formation of the first limited company (I can think of at least three) and the liquidation of the last one, the transfer of assets to the CASC, and the legal and RFU definition of what a rugby club is.


Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 09:41
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Stoatgobbler Stoatgobbler wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

[
That's how they got around the rules. London Welsh Amateur were a separate club legally and just adopted the London Welsh name after the liquidation of the original club. Likewise LIARFC and the Scots have done that too. 


There was no 'getting around the rules'.
When LW went to the Premiership, that team were the lone entity. They are the ones that disappeared.
The 'original club' was always the other teams.


Just to expand on this, the club (comprising the Amateurs, Occies, women, minis & juniors etc) wasn't liquidated. The professional entity - London Welsh Rugby Football Club Limited - was.  Where you draw the line between the entities is blurred - of course the 1st XV was part of the club, but it was a separate limited company with its own (limited) assets and (extensive) liabilities.  At that point the Amateurs became the defacto 1st XV by virtue of being the most senior team at the club. But good luck unpicking the history of those 20 years between the formation of the first limited company (I can think of at least three) and the liquidation of the last one, the transfer of assets to the CASC, and the legal and RFU definition of what a rugby club is.


Mark
Nottingham did a similar thing when we had to move from Ireland Avenue and the championship was started by the RFU Council , the whole club i.e members players mini and juniors etc were advised of the thinking and a meeting was held for everyone to discuss and vote on the proposal of setting the 1st team up as limited co to protect the rest of the club and its assets if the whole crackpot idea of the championship blew up


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2020 at 18:00
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Clearly RFU Comps will take it all on-board, meanwhile........

........in 10 Days time RFU Comps will release the proposed Competition structures for 2021/22

Level 3 will remain 16 Teams (old Nat 1)
Level 4 will be 4 x as close to RFU Divisional (Regions) Leagues with 14 Teams in Each (old Nat 2N & 2S - teams from old Level 5 will be "uplifted" to fill in the gaps with a cascade effect from bottom up to re-balance the lower leagues)

Level 5 will be 12 Team Leagues unless regional variations means more/less teams (old Regional Premier)
Level 6 will be 12 Team Leagues
Level 7 down will be 12 Team Leagues or in some Regions 10 Team Leagues or less 

Talk of lower League National Cups comps with  differing structures.

Point 1
2nd XVs of Clubs from Level 3-5 will be allowed to participate in the RFU Leagues with a ceiling of not being able to play higher than Level 7 which will be reviewed after 1st year and which then may rise to Level 6.

Point 2
Don't think this includes any Clubs in the North West outside of the RFU Leagues (ie, Lancashire Lge and North West Lge)

Pretty sure the Clubs in the North rejected Point 1 when the RFU did their "listening surveys" also told that any further planned "discussions" will now NOT take place as planned.

Prove me wrong those in the know........... or wait 10 days!

Level 3-6 gone out just now to CBs and Club Secs.... I might be reading it wrong but Chester are in the same League as Redruth???? of course just a proposal......


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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2020 at 19:24
How many leagues are they suggesting at each level?

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Blood and Sand


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2020 at 20:36
Think it will be on englandrugby.com later but try this link....

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/3c/3c8f721a-48bc-4351-ae64-a2a55cd4413c/Adult%20Male%20Future%20Competitions%20Plan.pdf?utm_source=140820CGU&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=140820CGU&utm_content=Community&spMailingID=10240303&spUserID=MjY5ODA2NzI4OTI2S0&spJobID=1573497626&spReportId=MTU3MzQ5NzYyNgS2" rel="nofollow - https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/3c/3c8f721a-48bc-4351-ae64-a2a55cd4413c/Adult%20Male%20Future%20Competitions%20Plan.pdf?utm_source=140820CGU&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=140820CGU&utm_content=Community&spMailingID=10240303&spUserID=MjY5ODA2NzI4OTI2S0&spJobID=1573497626&spReportId=MTU3MzQ5NzYyNgS2


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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2020 at 21:59
That cannot be correct as it starts this September. Still totally unbalanced with 2 breaks before Christmas and 5 afterwards

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So many Christians not enough Lions


Posted By: Neasham
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 07:56
It is correct. The “2020-21”  fixture list is an example. It will be introduced in 2021-22 season.


Posted By: 'Hopper
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 13:14
If the 2020-2021 season isn't completed, will the new League Structures still be implemented in 2021?
Saying  that, I'm assuming that the Council will approve the structure that's been set out of course.


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What if the Hokey Kokey really IS what it's all about?


Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 14:18
Surprised no Christmas match, they (for Bedford anyway) as the biggest gate of the season.


Posted By: 'Hopper
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 14:53
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Surprised no Christmas match, they (for Bedford anyway) as the biggest gate of the season.
There hasn't been any Christmas Holiday league matches at those levels for years.


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What if the Hokey Kokey really IS what it's all about?


Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 15:00
I don’t think the likes of Cambridge have played league matches at Christmas

Still confused, by 2021/22 am reading Championship will be two conferences, 14+8 fixtures. So no difference to the 22 matches currently played. But an open draw cup?
R16, Quarters, Semis and Final.
But love or hate the current cup delivers 3 extra home matches. 






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Old enough to know better...just wish I knew what


Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2020 at 23:16
Originally posted by 'Hopper 'Hopper wrote:

Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Surprised no Christmas match, they (for Bedford anyway) as the biggest gate of the season.
There hasn't been any Christmas Holiday league matches at those levels for years.

Perhaps they should try, Blues go from around 2,500 - 2,750 to 5,000 to 5,500, a good income generator.


Posted By: 'Hopper
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2020 at 09:33
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Originally posted by 'Hopper 'Hopper wrote:

Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Surprised no Christmas match, they (for Bedford anyway) as the biggest gate of the season.
There hasn't been any Christmas Holiday league matches at those levels for years.

Perhaps they should try, Blues go from around 2,500 - 2,750 to 5,000 to 5,500, a good income generator.

I think it's designed that way to give players time with their families. Our club, as with many others hold annual charity games on Boxing Day. 


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What if the Hokey Kokey really IS what it's all about?


Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2020 at 12:18
I wonder how far down the leagues you can play festive games at?
Bedford i suspect attract players from Ath, Queens etc to watch a game. 

Harlequins game at Twickenham attracts players from a lot of the commuter belt, bumped into Luton players at Big Game, out for post Christmas drinks. With marketing maybe a club like Cambridge could attract a bigger crowd. But below National 1 how many clubs are the only club in a district, or the secondary club?



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Old enough to know better...just wish I knew what



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