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Rams deducted 5 points

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Dalrymple View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dalrymple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 13:24
Does anyone have a link to where the Panel's judgment in this matter might be found?
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Pappashanga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 13:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jester10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 13:41
Enjoying life!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 14:10
I found it by searching   'RFU disciplinary'. There's a long list and you need to go back to September 2019.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 14:35
Blood and Sand
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jester10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 18:31
Thanks Camquin. Just read through the details. Lets hope the RFU enjoy their power. 
Enjoying life!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thunderbird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 20:38
😡😡So an administrative error by an over worked volunteer. Costs the club they love 5pts and a loss of funding. 
 The RFU appear to want limited payments to players but then expect unpaid volunteers often with little authority but with mountains of responsibility to carry the can.
I can tell you from first hand experience that GMS has got floors. 
I have altered shirt numbers before a match only to find they had not been registered by GMS,luckily I had a screen shot.
At one point I could have altered most other clubs registered players as I had access to their page.I have also ticked FR only to  find it removed post match. Finally have confirmed match detail to find it on GMS on Monday un confirmed. 
Angry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Sley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 05:18
I’ve never ‘had the pleasure’ of using the GMS but Thunderbird’s comments (posting above) reminded me of the Post Office’s faulty Horizon system: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50741916

My only experience of using the RFU’s IT (like the majority of us) is the website (and previous versions) which is woeful …..and as new versions have appeared, seems to have got worse as opposed to ‘new improved’. I’ve completely given up on finding fixtures/results via rfu.com (what else could ordinary people want to find out on a regular basis??) and reverted to waiting for The Rugby Paper on Sunday or a trawl through club twitter postings.

Given the above, it seems that there’s every chance that Rams might actually have submitted correctly…………….but even if they didn’t, the judgement (jeez….how can the report be THAT long) smacks of playing at being judges at a murder trial.

Surely for something that the RFU think is SOOO important, there should be either a way to correct or an off-line facility for a draft version. It’s almost like they’re trying to trick people.


Edited by Bill Sley - 29 Feb 2020 at 06:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dwinpenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 05:55
The RFUs ability to implement an IT system for the game is worse than the NHS Single Patient Record programme which was cancelled because it was too hard!
Don’t forget GMS is the SECOND crack at a system to register players, results and fixtures!
Dave Winpenny
"Confused and old"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quercynomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 10:11
The supposed failings or not of GMS are to me, a bit of a red herring. Not passing comment on the rights/wrongs of it, but the salient bit that all clubs should note is the points around minute taking and governance of committee/board meetings. Originally all of the full point deduction of 20 points was suspended but the disciplinary committee concluded that Rams had effectively fabricated meeting minutes to support their argument post-event and that alone was the aggravating factor that led to the immediate deduction of 5 points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamrose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 10:25
Originally posted by quercynomad quercynomad wrote:

The supposed failings or not of GMS are to me, a bit of a red herring. Not passing comment on the rights/wrongs of it, but the salient bit that all clubs should note is the points around minute taking and governance of committee/board meetings. Originally all of the full point deduction of 20 points was suspended but the disciplinary committee concluded that Rams had effectively fabricated meeting minutes to support their argument post-event and that alone was the aggravating factor that led to the immediate deduction of 5 points.

Being an aplologst for the RFU is not a good thing when the facts do not add up. in their judgement they say
  1. Inconclusion,theRFUacceptedthattheClub’serrorincompletingtheDeclarationwasneitherdeliberatenor Lovely and that the Club fell below the relevant Payment Threshold. It was, however, said that the manner in which the Club handled its compliance with Regulation 7, and the completion, review, approval and then signing of the Declaration, was serially negligent. The Club’s conduct in this regard, it argued, can only be described as lamentable. None of the officers, nor any of the members of the wider Committee (let alone the Committee collectively) took proper responsibility for the Club’s obligations in this regard. At every possible stage the Club was careless.

  2. The RFU added that this was not a criticism of the initial inadvertent error by Ms Tichband but of the lackadaisical approach the senior officers of the Club subsequently took in relation to their duties.

    if the RFU want a level playing feild they should afford clubs a QC to defend themselves. As Clive Norling says they will never lose as they hold all the cards and have money to burn. The judgement reads ike a school teachers report not of a body that is mean to be supportong the game

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quercynomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 11:13
Originally posted by Shamrose Shamrose wrote:

Being an aplologst for the RFU is not a good thing when the facts do not add up. 

No-one is being an apologist for the RFU - whilst the report says that the 20 point deduction is due to the RFU's (and the panel's) conclusion that the approach of the Rams board was lamentable; the specific conclusion of why they decided to make an immediate point deduction was because the panel concluded that the board minutes were written post event to support a narrative (indeed my read is that the RFU had asked for a 20 point deduction fully suspended and it was the panel that changed that). As I said, whether that is right or wrong that is what the report says. 

The key takeaway for me is that anyone who is involved in management of a rugby club should be thinking about how their own governance would look if put under a similar spotlight. I would argue that the bar they (RFU) are judging against is inappropriate for the vast majority of rugby clubs that are largely run by volunteers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 12:31
Originally posted by quercynomad quercynomad wrote:

Originally posted by Shamrose Shamrose wrote:

Being an aplologst for the RFU is not a good thing when the facts do not add up. 


No-one is being an apologist for the RFU - whilst the report says that the 20 point deduction is due to the RFU's (and the panel's) conclusion that the approach of the Rams board was lamentable; the specific conclusion of why they decided to make an immediate point deduction was because the panel concluded that the board minutes were written post event to support a narrative (indeed my read is that the RFU had asked for a 20 point deduction fully suspended and it was the panel that changed that). As I said, whether that is right or wrong that is what the report says. 

The key takeaway for me is that anyone who is involved in management of a rugby club should be thinking about how their own governance would look if put under a similar spotlight. I would argue that the bar they (RFU) are judging against is inappropriate for the vast majority of rugby clubs that are largely run by volunteers.



And a lot higher than the RFU apply to their own governance and decision making
RAID ON
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backrowb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 12:34
Lets hope the RFU don't apply similar penalties to their own England Mens side, based on the RFU's fiscal performance. We may well get expelled from the 6 nations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 13:07
Originally posted by quercynomad quercynomad wrote:

The supposed failings or not of GMS are to me, a bit of a red herring. Not passing comment on the rights/wrongs of it, but the salient bit that all clubs should note is the points around minute taking and governance of committee/board meetings. Originally all of the full point deduction of 20 points was suspended but the disciplinary committee concluded that Rams had effectively fabricated meeting minutes to support their argument post-event and that alone was the aggravating factor that led to the immediate deduction of 5 points.


Ok, didn't want to post this but it needs to be said ...

The volunteer on her night off, came to the club where the committee were due to meet for their normal monthly meeting, there is a bar next door to the room where the committee sit and have their meeting, it takes all of 10 paces to get to this room. One of the executive had already discussed with the volunteer what the correct answers needed to be, so as she didn't have to spend any longer at the club than necessary (currently somewhere between 20/30 hours a week), the form was signed before they went into the room and sat down around a table. The only people in the club that night were the committee, the volunteer and a bar manager. In the minutes of the meeting, it was noted that the form had been signed, it is a mute point when does the committee meeting formally start .... the RFU have argued that if the committee had been sat around a table in a room, as opposed to stood in a larger room next door, the mistake would have been noticed .....that is the "technicality" that has stopped RAMS appealing ... I'm sure the RFU will be delighted to hear that the volunteer has been on medication for the last 6 months due to the stress of the situation and went to games hoping the team would lose, so as the potential 20 point deduction didn't stop the team getting promoted to The Championship .... well done RFU, hope you feel proud about that!

On the above basis, what room were the RFU Management Board sat in when the refurbishment of the East Stand went over budget by an eye watering £30 MILLION POUNDS? That is the rank hypocrisy that leaves community clubs thinking that the RFU are not here to help them in any shape or form but just to do everything they can to stop any club that has aspirations to better themselves and the community (remember them RFU, they fill Twickenham stadium for you at the obscene prices you charge i.e. £7 for a pint of beer!)

I was involved with the RFU since 1991-2017 and was an employee from 1996, since there is absolutely no possibility of being in that position again, I can say what I really think ... See U Next Tuesday time and time again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Puli. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 13:41
Clive Norling 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
If Rugby is the game they play in Heaven ..... Why does it hurt like Hell when you retire?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backrowb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 13:48
Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 

On the above basis, what room were the RFU Management Board sat in when the refurbishment of the East Stand went over budget by an eye watering £30 MILLION POUNDS? That is the rank hypocrisy that leaves community clubs thinking that the RFU are not here to help them in any shape or form but just to do everything they can to stop any club that has aspirations to better themselves and the community (remember them RFU, they fill Twickenham stadium for you at the obscene prices you charge i.e. £7 for a pint of beer!)

Yup, and how sad is that. If I were a Rams member i would be be beyond furious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 22:07
Further to my previous post, I find reading page after page of judgement really boring, but I decided to drill down and read the majority of the pages ...and came across this lovely sentence from the Governing Body ...

It was, however, said that the manner
in which the Club handled its compliance with Regulation 7, and the completion, review, approval and then
signing of the Declaration, was serially negligent.


Quite laughable, so it's obviously not serially negligent to go over budget by £30 million pounds on a capital expenditure and then lie by issuing a statement that this was "because of increased safety costs because of the Grenfell tragedy" .....

Every single member of the RFU Council should hang their heads in shame, that they have allowed the "professional" side of the company, to agree a deal with PRL, that is frankly not far short of criminal, allow an ex CEO to pay himself a kings ransom, promoted a FD to CEO who was so far out of his depth and the pair of them to authorise the refurbishment of a stand that was only 18 years old and because NFL (American Football) said they wouldn't play any games there unless the hospitality was significantly improved ...

It's also not seriously negligent to make a massive profit on RWC2015, promise to engage in many projects with the community side of the game e.g. 100 x 4G pitches and fail to deliver on them and just use the excuse of "we've run out of money" ... oh, that's ok then, you make promises to your members and then let them down ...

Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline, Sportsmanship. just words RFU, it's about time Council Members and the paid staff start delivering on the above and if you can't/won't then resign and lets get people in who care about the game from top to bottom ....

Breaking news, our fantastically funded 7's team, have come 7th in Los Angeles, losing along the way to Spain & Ireland, impressive ..... NOT



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backrowb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 22:14
 And breathe Clive 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 22:27
Originally posted by backrowb backrowb wrote:

 And breathe Clive 


.... they've got me going, there are so many stories that happened in my 25+ years with them, but this has tipped me over the edge ... to have our female volunteer crying on my shoulder, if they could see the effect it's had on her but others who are paid to do a job by the RFU and just f**k it up and nothing happens .... they are so desperate to save money where they can and they pontificate as we're some blue chip company with hundreds of paid employees, the only paid member of staff we have non playing is the clubhouse manager, every other person is a volunteer ..... sorry, the part time bar/catering staff are paid


Edited by Clive Norling - 01 Mar 2020 at 22:30
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