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Rams deducted 5 points

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Thunderbird View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thunderbird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 10:21
I know it's after the horse has bolted , but we now screen shot anything important regarding GMS. It is not to be trusted!!

    I really feel for your volunteer I have been in similar situations, luckily with no consequences but a lot of worry. 
  
So the RFU appear to want amateurs players with a professional commitee, so volunteer players only.  
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Clive Norling View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 11:03
Originally posted by Thunderbird Thunderbird wrote:

I know it's after the horse has bolted , but we now screen shot anything important regarding GMS. It is not to be trusted!!

    I really feel for your volunteer I have been in similar situations, luckily with no consequences but a lot of worry. 
  
So the RFU appear to want amateurs players with a professional commitee, so volunteer players only.  


Thanks for the support ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 11:30
Clive,

the RFU are an incompetent organisation and seem to operate non of the values they espouse. It is an absolute disgrace that they can operate such double standards and penalise your club and an unpaid volunteer in the way that they have.

I bet non of the fat cats at the RFU have any idea of the effort and money that unpaid volunteers put into community clubs..................why would they know........they never look beyond elite rugby and the Premiership.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 12:41
As an interesting side issue, when we put our car in the garage Labour is charged around £70 per hour, call the boiler man out it’s £60 per hour etc. What price a volunteer at any club across the country is putting in. My hours range from 14-25 (roughly) on any week depending on whether we are home or away so give an average cost of £30ph ( I don’t know what companies work out the cost per employee is these days) per hour it would cost my club £420- £750 per week average that at £600 then that equates to £2400 per 4 week month and then £24000 per 10 month season and I am only 1 of several that put lots of time into maintaining a team and facilities in Nat 1. I am in a fortunate position that I can give the time freely so it isn’t an issue for me but this may not always be the case everywhere
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 12:43
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Clive,

the RFU are an incompetent organisation and seem to operate non of the values they espouse. It is an absolute disgrace that they can operate such double standards and penalise your club and an unpaid volunteer in the way that they have.

I bet non of the fat cats at the RFU have any idea of the effort and money that unpaid volunteers put into community clubs..................why would they know........they never look beyond elite rugby and the Premiership.


Eddie, thanks for your continued support, look forward to visiting Caldy next season ...

The judgement is quite clever really, the panel have found that our volunteer is completely blameless but the executive are to blame ... but those of us at the club know that the said volunteer has handled all player registration issues without any incident for the last 10 years and knows far more about player registration administration side than any of the committee (and at times London Irish!), so when said volunteer puts a document in front of them, they would have been trusting her judgement totally .... it is what it is and we move on ... as a club we always thought that Richmond were tremendously hard done by and didn't deserve not to be in The Championship, but any lingering hope we had (and it was very, very, very small) of getting promoted went out the window on Wednesday morning ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 13:03
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

As an interesting side issue, when we put our car in the garage Labour is charged around £70 per hour, call the boiler man out it’s £60 per hour etc. What price a volunteer at any club across the country is putting in. My hours range from 14-25 (roughly) on any week depending on whether we are home or away so give an average cost of £30ph ( I don’t know what companies work out the cost per employee is these days) per hour it would cost my club £420- £750 per week average that at £600 then that equates to £2400 per 4 week month and then £24000 per 10 month season and I am only 1 of several that put lots of time into maintaining a team and facilities in Nat 1. I am in a fortunate position that I can give the time freely so it isn’t an issue for me but this may not always be the case everywhere


Rabbie, on Saturday morning between 07.00 - 11.00 we had over 20 volunteers, including over 50% of the Executive (including the CEO, Chairman and Secretary), out on the pitch, forking it, sweeping water off so as we could get the game on, if we hadn't have played, that would have been the 3rd week off for our 1st team.

Perhaps the committees time could have been better spent studying player registration documents and GMS, we wouldn't have had a game, 500 spectators would have nothing to look at, there would have been no revenue generated but the RFU would have been happy that all documentation was correct!

Yes, looking at it that way, they have a point .... we'll have of course possibly 30% less clubs in 20 years time with that attitude but the free bar for the Council members (and their 8 guests) that operates before and after every Test match, will still be in operation, need to make sure the important things in rugby are carried on, even if the ship is sinking, standards, standards .....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamrose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 13:52
It is very sad when volunteers get treated in this way and I hope she gets over it in time.

We do have to look at the set up of the whole disciplinary process as you might as well be the defendant in the Japanese legal system

So for this case the RFU appointed a QC to represent them. The question is why and who makes that decision?

In addition the independent panel was made up of 3 barristers as well as secretary and with another RFU employee there as well.

Now I have recently dealt with a  property lawyer who's rate was £350 per hour  so I would imagine the QC and Barristers would be north of this

Bearing in mind this convened on two occasions this would require travel time and to and from the venue for all concerned  which is also chargeable. There is then the time taken to write up the judgement

Lets be generous and say there was a 7 chargeable hours per person although i would guess it would be more

3 Barristers £500 per hour = £10,500
QC £750 per hour £5,250

So we are up to over £15k of money the RFU supposedly doesn't have

I presume the costs of the Disciplinary panel just gets hidden in the RFU the salary figures and we will never know the true cost but it does show how little attention is given to spending by the RFU



Edited by Shamrose - 02 Mar 2020 at 13:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thunderbird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 14:12
Shamrose , you forgot to factor in the venue for the hearing , usually in a very nice 5star central London hotel. it's not as is the RFU don't have a perfectly good central london meeting place.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamrose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 14:23
That what I thought but it was the Holiday Inn Bloomsbury, so probably not bad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 14:43
Originally posted by Shamrose Shamrose wrote:

That what I thought but it was the Holiday Inn Bloomsbury, so probably not bad


It's their regular London venue, been there before myself, I would suggest it's deliberately there as opposed to TW1 so as easier for a QC to get to after finishing in chambers .... RAMS estimated circa 20k for RFU costs ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Joy of (Level) 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 17:13
The RFU’s “sledgehammer to crack a nut” approach to disciplinary matters, in terms of the resources consumed by them has always seemed odd to me. As others have noted they appear to be totally disproportionate to the “misdemeanour”. On reading the posts above it doesn’t seem that they make any attempt to differentiate between the duty of care/responsibility the RAMS board have regarding a simple administrative error and that of the board of a PLC when truly important decisions and actions are taken. This lack of empathy can only lead to excessive costs on all sides.

Why doesn’t someone write to them asking why they feel the need to take this approach and to be so over-represented legally, and at the same time how much it has cost them in the last financial year?


Edited by The Joy of (Level) 7 - 02 Mar 2020 at 17:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 17:22
Originally posted by The Joy of (Level) 7 The Joy of (Level) 7 wrote:

The RFU’s “sledgehammer to crack a nut” approach to disciplinary matters, in terms of the resources consumed by them has always seemed odd to me. As others have noted they appear to be totally disproportionate to the “misdemeanour”. On reading the posts above it doesn’t seem that they make any attempt to differentiate between the duty of care/responsibility the RAMS board have regarding a simple administrative error and that of the board of a PLC when truly important decisions and actions are taken. This lack of empathy can only lead to excessive costs on all sides.

Why doesn’t someone write to them asking why they feel the need to take this approach and to be so over-represented legally, and at the same time how much it has cost them in the last financial year?



Probably, because it would be a waste of paper, ink and postage - I seriously doubt they would answer.
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Clive Norling View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 19:09
Originally posted by The Joy of (Level) 7 The Joy of (Level) 7 wrote:

The RFU’s “sledgehammer to crack a nut” approach to disciplinary matters, in terms of the resources consumed by them has always seemed odd to me. As others have noted they appear to be totally disproportionate to the “misdemeanour”. On reading the posts above it doesn’t seem that they make any attempt to differentiate between the duty of care/responsibility the RAMS board have regarding a simple administrative error and that of the board of a PLC when truly important decisions and actions are taken. This lack of empathy can only lead to excessive costs on all sides.

Why doesn’t someone write to them asking why they feel the need to take this approach and to be so over-represented legally, and at the same time how much it has cost them in the last financial year?



Because that is how they approach the clubs full stop. They DO NOT differentiate between a Premiership Club and a Level 12 club, you're a club/business, then your Executive should act accordingly.

The costs to them are not up for debate, it's about winning and it's about clubs acting in a certain way when in breach of RFU regulations, however, the same is not applied to the RFU because they can never breach any regulations (except World Rugby).

The Management Board can act domestically in a cavalier/fiscally outrageous/do as we say, not as we do manner and no one holds them to account and if you tried to, I would suggest you win the lottery before you did.

To give you one more example of the arrogance in which they behave and then you might see why I write like I do ....

In 1999 with the RFU worried that the clubs might break away and form their own league, in effect, leaving the RFU with no top quality players to choose from, the Elite referees at the time were asked to sign a contract of employment. It was made clear that not to sign would restrict our ability to referee Premiership rugby. We all duly signed. The contract was totally over the top, as it was written for England players, so 95% of it did not apply to referees bu hey ho, we signed and in a stroke, the RFU nipped in the bud any chance of a breakaway, no officials, no game.

Fast forward to about 2006, the payment of referees was now in full swing, you were paid a match fee, travelling expenses, overnight stay when required etc etc ... however, of the referees from 1999 who had signed then, only one remained, yours truly. To cut a long story short, it came to light that the 1999 contract differed quite financially significantly to the one of 2006 but it seemed no one in the RFU had remembered and my colleagues started to complain that they were earning less than yours truly ...

1) First of all the RFU didn't believe I'd signed a contract in 1999, they had no record of it in the HR department
2) I produced the contract
3) They tried to claim it wasn't a contract because no one from the RFU had signed it ... oh come on guys, do any of you know nothing about contracts of employment, you're the RFU for gods sake (of course they did, they were just trying it on, as they always do if they can get away with it)
4) Having accepted the contract was legally binding, they offered me the new one, which was very similar in financial remuneration but not exactly the same and had a potential of earning £2000 less a year (a bonus paid for your ranking position)
5) I refused to sign it
6) After a period of about 2 months where there was a stand off, I received the following phone call one night from my referee manager ..."this is not coming from me, it's coming from the very top, you need to sign the new contract, and if you don't sign in 7 days, I've been told not to appoint you to any more Premiership games until you do"
Me "that's constructive dismissal, you can't do that"
Manager "I'm just the messenger and I'm not happy having to have this conversation" ....

Subsequently, I signed the new contract 5 days later .... I would easily have won an industrial tribunal claim, as a high ranking Council Member told me about 6 years ago and I knew that anyway and if I had done that, the RFU would never have let me near a Premiership ground again, because analysis of refereeing is very subjective, they could have used lack of performance as an excuse (as they've done with two previous FULL time referees) and I couldn't have challenged it ..... and they so don't like people who aren't "yes" men! ....

As I've said previously, you NEVER BEAT the RFU, you win small battles along the way but they always win the war ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldman1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 20:03
Clive, I'm sure your experience is very similar to many others. Rams have been badly treated, as you say an organisation run by volunteers judged on professional standards  (although those "professional" standards can be far lower than found in many Clubs!).
The only way things will change is for there to be a revolt by the majority off the clubs affiliated to the RFU. This will not happen as most clubs do not realise what is happening, and those that do are very much in the minority.
The RFU, and World Rugby are only interested in the Professional game. I quote Wayne Barnes on BT sport last evening. "We want the ball in play more, we want spectators to see the ball in play." The Rugby I grew up with and love is about the players not the spectators. Barns talked about a meeting in Paris to discuss the laws. He mentioned coaches, referees and players who would be there. I wonder about the logic of not inviting players, coaches or referees from the "lower" reaches of the game. I question a third team prop at my club as to if he wanted the ball in play more. His answer can be summerised as "No".
Perhaps I am wrong but I suspect nothing will come of this, players will leave the game, clubs will fold. But the County representatives will still get there freebies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 20:12
I'm so sorry to be reading all this, there've been so many cases of this at various levels below the top one, and the RFU give you FA help/guidance ahead of charging you with whatever offence, which you hardly ever win. And top level offenders with paid staff are treated no differently, and that's supposedly fair...

Think the RFU Council met today - wonder if this topic and/or Championship funding was raised?
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