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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Refereeing
    Posted: 17 Nov 2012 at 08:19
Hi I'm looking for people's opinions . Five years ago at a conference I fervently suggested the rfu needed more professional players to become referees
As you are aware I am still the only guy to of achieved this
Now on the welsh national panel for the last six years because of my opinion and with no way back to international rugby
At my prime for officiating I ask where are the professional players to officials
Thousands in coaching ??
No referees ??
Is this just pure chance ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2012 at 13:48
Is this a joke? Never heard of Glen Jackson? Never heard of posting in the appropriate forum?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2012 at 16:57
Why would it be a joke of course I know glen Jackson . Is he refereeing for the rfu elite in the premiership or in the magners . Better officials better game ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2012 at 16:59
Are you saying that professional players to referees are not the way forward ?
I've done it
It's the only way forward
Referees are deciding games ?
Aren't they
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2012 at 18:44
What are you credentials for your opinion ?
Played professionally ?
Reffed professionally ?
? ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2012 at 05:37
TimBeddow, See my write up on in in a different forum about referee's,Referees,  You will note, I actually endorse your views, although Glen jackson Refeeing in New Zeland and then getting an International in less than 18 Months is good enought IMO for either of the leagues you mention.
Not sure why you challenge RedorDead question so forcefully, after all you start your thread with 'Hi I'm looking for people's opinions'   Just an observation! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2012 at 09:12
You make a very good point .i didn't mean to come across like that
I am interested in opinions
I need to know if your a fan player coach ?
Great for glen Jackson and your agreement to this career path .
But where is the northern hemisphere programme I seem to be the only person in officiating that thinks this would produce the best referees ? Thanks for your comments
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 08:50
Hi Tim,

I'm sure you won't remember me but I was referees secretary at the Uni of Gloucestershire for a couple of years in 2008-2010. You reffed a fair few games for us. 

I absolutely agree with you that it's a good idea for the RFU to try and encourage ex-pros into reffing.

I also read somewhere recently that the RFU is rolling out a new scheme whereby all premiership academy players are taking refereeing courses. I believe the idea is that any who subsequently don't make the grade as a player, either through lack of talent or in jury, would then be encouraged into refereeing as a way of staying in the game. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 14:01
Tim Beddow: First up, you're not the only former professional player to make the transition across to refereeing.
Many people will know about Glen Jackson, but i can assure you he has been refereeing a lot longer than the 18 months since he finished playing. He was mentored by an RFU elite referee in the lower leagues while at Saracens before being fast-tracked and returning to NZ.
There are other former top-class players who now referee, and by top class I also mean semi-professional players - Alain Rolland, John Lacey both Eire, and Greg McDonald (former Moseley) in Eng.. there are more but i don't have names to hand.
 
I don't agree with you that only former professional players make best the referees - where is your evidence to support that, or is it based on opinion?
 
I am guessing you were former RFU, but now in Wales, so am sure you know both systems - there is a pro-player ELRA indeed as Will Tops eludes to, but you can lead a horse to water....
 
Plenty of Prem Academies agree the idea is a good one, but it's one thing saying, it's another thing getting the commitment from them to run a course and then get their players on it.
 
 
Did I really say that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 18:00
Of course it's an opinion but not just my own academy players are still academy players
Glen Jackson and Alain are great examples both backs though
Refereeing is about experience people experience game understanding and refereeing and playing experience etc
My opinion is that there are very few people who can officiate at the top level surely the higher they have played the better coaches and players they have gained experience off
You may not be able to lead a horse to water but for the greater good of the game we need to give the horse the best chance of drinking
There is very little evidence except the people you mention
Why is that ? ? I didn't get injured I choose to referee because I wanted to improve officiating
There must be lots of 30 year old first class players interested in refereeing.
Unless the irb are saying we are not interested unless your under 35 which they are
Or better still 20 and very affordable
I'm sure you would like to see refereeing standards improve
Played and officiated in the GP where are these guy s ??
In rugby
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 18:43
Tim: it would appear that you should be venting your spleen at Premiership/Championship clubs and Academies, not referees and/or those who are already doing the utmost to encourage players into officiating.
 
Put yourself in an Academy player's boots... why would you want to choose refereeing?!
 
And what are the WRU doing about it?
 
 
Did I really say that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 20:56
I don't want academy players to become referees till they have played
They need to play to create an ingrained instinct
The wru are doing the same as the rfu
Fast tracking people into games that they are completely out of there depth helps no one
I read and watch from Stourbridge to Wakefield to Rotherham to Bristol to twickenham of fans and coaches asking
Where's the game understanding and empathy and accuracy
Perhaps if we had a few more elections than coronations we could
Improve officiating
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 21:41
This whole idea of having to have played professionally/to a certain standard to "qualify" to ref (and coach for that matter) is quite frankly rubbish. The skills that make someone an excellent player doesn't guarantee them to be an excellent ref/coach. The only positive I can see to having ex professional players involved in reffing over that of some who isnt is to do with scrum time. If we could get some ex props to start reffing then maybe the scrums would become more stable, because they know all of the little tricks and plans to manipulate your opponent, which quite frankly if you haven't played front row you cant know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 22:33
I'm talking about elite refereeing
It's quite clear there's a skill shortage that has not been succession planned for
Thank you for all your opinions it appears
That nothing will change
The gap between playing and refereeing will continue to expand
In rugby beds
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 06:52
is there a particular reason as to why you type the way you do? Don't want to be one of those internet grammar Nazis, but it does make it rather difficult to understand what you are saying with no punctuation and what seems to be random choices for line endings.

But the thing is you seem to be adamant that you need to be a top player to be a top referee, but I don't see why this would be the case. The skills to be a great player are not the same as that to be a great referee. 

I will take an analogy from my other sport, skiing. To become a Level 4 ISTD coach (highest rank) you have to take speed/technical test and gain a points score that equates to a junior home nation international standard. I don't believe this is necessary or helpful, just because you can perform to high standard, doesn't mean you can then deliver that information better than someone who does not reach the standard required to pass the speed/technical test.

Linking back to rugby, although not refereeing, but we have recently seen the negatives of hiring someone because of who they were as a player in Martin Johnson, great player, not so great coach. 

You talk of a gap between playing and refereeing and its expansion. What exactly do you mean by that? Surely there cant be a gap because they are not the same thing and therefore not comparable?

Where do you see there being a skill shortage? As in there being a lack of "elite" referees? (I was under the impression that the IRB only sanctioned a certain number of those, happy to be corrected though) or a lack of skill or knowledge relating to a particular facet of the game? ie the scrum or breakdown (two which are complained about the most)

Finally you said "There must be lots of 30 year old first class players interested in refereeing." Really? You honestly think that? How many referees do you need to run a Premiership weekend of games? 6 games, each with a panel of 3 and 4th official? 24 referees. That is a match day squad of one team! I know for a fact, if I were a 30 year old player, I would much rather have the security of my contract (which I would assume is bigger than a premiership refs) than quitting the game i love for the uncertainty of trying to force my way in to a very small group of people, which would not happen for at least a couple of years.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 08:11
I m a ski instructor as well and being able to ski
To high standard certainly makes my coaching
Easier through demonstration .
The gap is simple to see , the panels of the northern hemisphere
Have approximately 400 places
An international elite referee package is six figure with all add ons.
Not all pro players are bothered about the money they
Don't need iit or they may want to improve the game .
If you take Andy Robinson you can see players do make
Great coaches etc the gap is clear referees are getting
Simple decisions in law wrong.
This is big business .
Decisions matter heads should role , I would need to
Understand obstruction at a maul in my county badge
Year one
I'm not saying there is only one path , but these players
Have been in doctrinaire s in professional rugby
Every day all day . I think that helps and then allows
Instinctive accurate decision making
It appears your very happy with the standard of refereeing??
How would you feel if you we're Andy Robinson etc
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 08:39
Timbeddow, do I detect a bitter man? I am sure those tasked with finding the next generation of referees, Ed Morrison, Tony Spreadbury etc are fully aware of the need to plan the next generation, and the one after that. Just becuse you have performed at a certain level does not mean you can coach or officiate at that level.
How many ex pro footballers referee? The only exception I can think of is cricket, but running fitness is not a factor there.
You talk of the need to understand the game, perhaps we need to approach from a different angle. Players being taught the laws and playing to them not breaking them ie props push each other in a safe way and do not collapse the scrum.
You referee to good palyers making great coachs, some do but most do not. If I remember correctly, and time may have clouded my memory, Mark Spitz's swimming coach could not swim a stroke, but 7 gold's at one olympics? he was doing something right.
Grow up Mr Beddow and address the problem at its source, players happy to cheat.
oldman
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 09:08
Timbeddow - i have have never met you, seen you play or watched you referee a game, but - as oldman eluded to - there appears a hint of bitterness in your posts towards the top end of officiating in England.
You appear to be drawing comment towards the elite/Premiership/Champsionship referees in England and stating that thery're not good enough, based on the comments you read from DoRs/coaches... Surely you're not as naive as that?!
 
And sorry, but i agree with other posters - this notion that you have to have played elite sport to then become a successful coach/referee is absolute nonsense. Have a word with Jess Ennis's coach, Toby Booth, Stuart Lancaster, Graham Henry... the list could go on and on.
 
The apparant chip on your shoulder is biasing your posts.
Did I really say that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 14:52
Tim, I don't think there is anything, anywhere in what I have written that said "I am very happy with the standard of refereeing" In fact in my first post I criticised the way that the scrum is refereed, and I believe this is because the current referees just don't have the knowledge. In fact I am certain I would referee the scrum better than most current referees. Why? Because I have played in the front row (I don't consider hookers in this as they are not responsible for the collapsing of the scrums) and I am almost 100% sure there are no ex props reffing to a high standard. 

What level did you ski to? Because I know you didn't race, so surely you are contradicting your own point here?

Finally, I don't know whether it is the device you are using or own choice, but can you please write in proper sentences, it really does make it difficult to understand what you are saying a lot of the time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 15:24
all, Unless i am totally off target, I think Tim's English lit has suffered abit since he whent over the bridge!!, I do not think he is attacking the system (I may be wrong) but offering an opinion that if we had more ex semi-proffesional/proffesional players turning to the whistle the standards would be better.  I think this is a given, but refereing is about alot more than knowing the laws of the game, it is exceptionally about man management and understanding the unwritten laws of the game, ie the front 5 etc etc.
 
By the way Tim, I am a player who has played all over the world for 20years and also coached a various levels.   
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