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Revolt in the North

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Griffin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Griffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 23:40
Just so we know what mileages we are talking about here are the mileages for all the teams in the ADM league Division 1 and the mileages for the two Cheshire teams to all of the other clubs. 


Round TripTotal MileageFrom Marple one wayFrom Dukinfield one way
Thornton Cleveleys1142Ashton-Under-Lyne11Ashton-Under-Lyne3
Colne & Nelson700Burnley43Burnley36
Clitheroe682Bury22Bury15
Burnley635Clitheroe44Clitheroe37
Marple629Colne & Nelson45Colne & Nelson38
Tyldesley563Dukinfield8Dukinfield0
Littleborough560Littleborough29Littleborough22
Dukinfield505Manchester Medics11Manchester Medics6
Ashton-Under-Lyne499Marple0Marple8
Bury455North Manchester14North Manchester7
Manchester Medics449Thornton Cleveleys64Thornton Cleveleys59
North Manchester421Tyldesley24Tyldesley21


Edited by Griffin - 12 Jun 2019 at 16:21
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard Feynman. God = √-1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 07:22
Ah Griffin stop shattering MB's best laid sulks, most of the Clubs are seeing the trip to TC as a "stopper" with the bright lights of Blackpool beckoning.
 
Any chance you could do the comparison on what Marple would have done if they stayed in a the original Cheshire & Lancashire 2 prior to the other Clubs leaving it. I'm think their mileage might be significantly higher, which means MBs sad post would look even sadder. You can even take Ramsey out of the calculation if you want.
 
Collegiate
Fleetwood
Hoylake
Orrell
Congleton
Birchfield
New Brighton
Garstang
Dukinfield
Ramsey
Ellesmere Port
 
 
 


Edited by PiffPaff - 12 Jun 2019 at 07:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Loo fighters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 07:40
Predominantly a Greater Manchester league. It's a no brainer on the face of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 08:26
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:


Ah Griffin stop shattering MB's best laid sulks, most of the Clubs are seeing the trip to TC as a "stopper" with the bright lights of Blackpool beckoning.
 
Any chance you could do the comparison on what Marple would have done if they stayed in a the original Cheshire & Lancashire 2 prior to the other Clubs leaving it. I'm think their mileage might be significantly higher, which means MBs sad post would look even sadder. You can even take Ramsey out of the calculation if you want.
 
Collegiate
Fleetwood
Hoylake
Orrell
Congleton
Birchfield
New Brighton
Garstang
Dukinfield
Ramsey
Ellesmere Port
 
 
 



You are having a little argument with yourself there.

My point is that you’ve set your leagues up under the premise of local rugby, no travelling etc but to fill the places have started to accept clubs from outside of your county and it’s far from local rugby when a team is travelling 64 miles.

To make you feel better you throw in a night out in Blackpool. Totally irrelevant and again against your core principles which was about allowing players to play without having time consuming away trips and not relevant at all to why Marple are in unless the edge of the Peak District is an attractive proposition for a coach stop off.

No one in the RFU leagues makes any comment about mileage so there’s no point making any comparison. The only comparison is that if you keep admitting Cheshire clubs then the North Lancashire clubs who don’t want to travel to Cumbria will soon feel the same after regular trips down the M6 and then across A roads in a few years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Loo fighters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 09:04
There's no way the RFU leagues could ever give these clubs what they wanted organically. Lancs have gerrymandered a "one size fits all" solution, but MB has a valid point. How far is too far? Surely there has to be boundaries or it becomes a contradiction & back the scenario you've just left. Also, do the current clubs get to vote on who comes in relevant to the potential travel distance above all other criteria.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 09:34
LF, so if you look at the longest trip its a 128 Mile Round Trip of which in terms of Travel Time the majority of which is on the Motorway network I would suggest the longest parts of the trip would be the 4 miles from Marple to the M60 and 13 or so miles from the M55 Junction 3 to Thornton, even in heavy traffic you are looking at around a 90 minute journey.
 
Fleetwood just a couple of miles North of Thornton would spend 25 more minutes on the Road getting to the nearest Cumbrian Club. The RFU Review Group came out and said that Clubs didn't want to travel times to exceed more than 80 mins (one or twice a season) as Griffin's mileage sheet shows that more localised leagues achieve this and then some.
 
So in summary 80 mins once or twice a season is the Yard Stick the RFU came up with, so a 10 minute variance once seems a fair trade off.
 
PS. Just elaborate on the "gerrymandered" bit
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 10:13
This is exactly what happened with the NW Colts league. Destroyed by straying from its core principles upon set up.

It soon had Kirkby Lonsdale playing Stoke in something set up for Lancashire and Cheshire.

The Lancashire (and certain Cheshire clubs) League will go the same way as due to the organic nature of league rugby you cannot control movements up or down.

If Hoylake or Crewe (you don’t like me using the Ramsey example) were to apply what happens next?

Say there’s a log jam in a division and Fleetwood have 7 long Cheshire trips you are back to square one.

The clubs who don’t want the RFU structure should simply organise friendlies and if they want a merit table to satisfy them playing when they want and who they want.

I get the impression this has already become about the County v RFU in a squabble and oneupmanship and the clubs issues have taken a backward seat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Griffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 11:25
Here is a Google Map of the ADM leagues on one layer and the RFU leagues on another. It has been playing up but I hope it loads OK.


If the above doesn't work try the link below:-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_vGDwECY5ZAqSzb93b7sGId2VJgsll8q&usp=sharing

If none Lancashire teams are admitted I don't think that Dukinfield and Marple can be called outliers. They are still within the remit of local rugby games. Neither add significant travelling to the other clubs and I suspect that the other clubs welcome the extra games.

I don't think that Kirkby Lonsdale in the Colts League could be called a local game. If Fleetwood & Thornton Cleveleys were not in Lancashire then I think that they could be regarded as outliers, but they get in as of right.


Edited by Griffin - 12 Jun 2019 at 13:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Griffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 12:36
Apologies for the non loading Google Map but it is a Google problem. I've just tried to redo the map but no go.

Marple moving over to the ADM leagues seems to have left a problem in the RFU SLC 1 & 2 leagues. The fixtures for these two leagues were up yesterday on the GMS Competitions website [1] but have now disappeared.

With 18 teams in total, just having one league is a non starter. They could go with two 9 team leagues playing twice, then split into three 6 team leagues playing twice, this would give 26 (16 + 10) games.

It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

[1] Only accessible to Competition Managers. A side effect of being a Competition Manager for just one league gives access to all the other leagues.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 12:43
Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

T
The clubs who don’t want the RFU structure should simply organise friendlies and if they want a merit table to satisfy them playing when they want and who they want.


This is exactly what they have done.  The RFU treat the league as a merit league for referees (if I understand correctly) and then the clubs have formalised the fixtures. 

I don't understand why everyone gets upset at a set of clubs who had an issue and then resolved it in a way that suited them.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Griffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 12:47
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

I don't understand why everyone gets upset at a set of clubs who had an issue and then resolved it in a way that suited them.  

You come here with your common sense, who do you think you are? Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 12:52
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

T
The clubs who don’t want the RFU structure should simply organise friendlies and if they want a merit table to satisfy them playing when they want and who they want.



This is exactly what they have done.  The RFU treat the league as a merit league for referees (if I understand correctly) and then the clubs have formalised the fixtures. 

I don't understand why everyone gets upset at a set of clubs who had an issue and then resolved it in a way that suited them.  





It’s not a merit table. It’s a league table. All clubs play the same opposition twice and everything is equal. A massive difference from a merit table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camp Freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 12:58
MB, the RFU class anything outside the ECC as merit table, Even the NOWIRUL setup is referred to this way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 13:01
Originally posted by Camp Freddie Camp Freddie wrote:

MB, the RFU class anything outside the ECC as merit table, Even the NOWIRUL setup is referred to this way.


Yes but it doesn’t operate as a merit table.

A merit table is decided by percentage wins/losses etc based on playing teams within your structure. It doesn’t state you must play each other home and away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 13:36
Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

Originally posted by Camp Freddie Camp Freddie wrote:

MB, the RFU class anything outside the ECC as merit table, Even the NOWIRUL setup is referred to this way.


Yes but it doesn’t operate as a merit table.

A merit table is decided by percentage wins/losses etc based on playing teams within your structure. It doesn’t state you must play each other home and away.


It's a formalised merit table.

Why are you so upset about the whole issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 13:50
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

Originally posted by Camp Freddie Camp Freddie wrote:

MB, the RFU class anything outside the ECC as merit table, Even the NOWIRUL setup is referred to this way.


Yes but it doesn’t operate as a merit table.

A merit table is decided by percentage wins/losses etc based on playing teams within your structure. It doesn’t state you must play each other home and away.


It's a formalised merit table.

Why are you so upset about the whole issue?


It’s a league table. Every one plays every one else home and away each season.
A merit table may see one team not play everyone else. Massive difference.

I’m not upset I just like pointing out the hypocrisy of it all.

There’s a video link on the website of Widnes RUFC which has the founder clubs and instigators all talking about local rugby, M62 corridor etc, and then you have clubs who are far from local playing each other in the structure which will eventually lead to a breakaway from this to something else. Have a watch. You might enjoy it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 14:42
" Hypocrisy" that's a fairly emotive word to use when the clubs in question have taken the RFU classification of " Merit Table" in order to maintain their status within the RFU and subsequently decided to formalise the fixtures in order to establish an administrative framework. I don't know whether or not they have also drawn up a set of guidelines/rules/laws/obligations/penalties and the like but don't see why the initiative shouldn't work.

IMHO this approach bridges the gap between the old system of friendlies ( whether or not that was reflected in some form of merit table) and the RFU's preferred league structure which appears to be creating a few problems . To my mind the issue at the root of this local disagreement is the failure by the RFU to sort out the relationship between the amateur, semi-professional and professional game focussed as it is upon the revenue generated by sponsorship/tv and big game receipts.

What is truly hypocritical is the fact that the RFU having helped created division back in the late 1890s  is now favouring the professional over the amateur game which could destroy the very qualities which many of us admire about rugby.

Oh and before we get any whingeing ( particularly from Southern parts) about the "lesser code" it is worth noting that many sports discriminated against the so-called "working man" back in the day. No doubt many will remember Gentlemen v Players ( I ask you!) in cricket and the attitude of those running athletics both pre and post WW2 - Alf Tupper ( the tough of the track) was based on real situations which I will leave to Athletics equivalent of this forum.

Now can we get back to holding the RFU accountable to US the club members who have helped keep the game alive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Griffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 16:18
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

 Alf Tupper ( the tough of the track) was based on real situations which I will leave to Athletics equivalent of this forum.

Showing your age Bigmal. I can remember Alf with his Fish & Chips taking on the toffs.



Edited by Griffin - 12 Jun 2019 at 16:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 16:24
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

" Hypocrisy" that's a fairly emotive word to use when the clubs in question have taken the RFU classification of " Merit Table" in order to maintain their status within the RFU and subsequently decided to formalise the fixtures in order to establish an administrative framework. I don't know whether or not they have also drawn up a set of guidelines/rules/laws/obligations/penalties and the like but don't see why the initiative shouldn't work.

IMHO this approach bridges the gap between the old system of friendlies ( whether or not that was reflected in some form of merit table) and the RFU's preferred league structure which appears to be creating a few problems . To my mind the issue at the root of this local disagreement is the failure by the RFU to sort out the relationship between the amateur, semi-professional and professional game focussed as it is upon the revenue generated by sponsorship/tv and big game receipts.

What is truly hypocritical is the fact that the RFU having helped created division back in the late 1890s  is now favouring the professional over the amateur game which could destroy the very qualities which many of us admire about rugby.

Oh and before we get any whingeing ( particularly from Southern parts) about the "lesser code" it is worth noting that many sports discriminated against the so-called "working man" back in the day. No doubt many will remember Gentlemen v Players ( I ask you!) in cricket and the attitude of those running athletics both pre and post WW2 - Alf Tupper ( the tough of the track) was based on real situations which I will leave to Athletics equivalent of this forum.

Now can we get back to holding the RFU accountable to US the club members who have helped keep the game alive.


Mal read the thread. You’ll see why it’s hypocrisy. Local leagues, rugby that allows people to be home for tea. Now it’s changed to seeing the Blackpool Lights for some far flung Cheshire clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 16:43
MB, really 64 Miles ONCE, at the risk of repeating myself what Clubs asked for during the RFU Review and subsequently mentioned in said review.
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