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RFU redundancies.

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Tyke View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 09:43
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

The NCA AGM was told that the AGP programme was being paused for a review as some of the pitches weren’t generating the expected revenue.
 

Being fair to the RFU (a phrase I never thought I would use) the lack of revenue seems to be a result of a reluctance by clubs to use these pitches for matches, thus they are only being utilised for mid week training which restricts the hours available. The review is to look at this in conjunction with reports of increased injury levels on these pitches which they think may explain the reluctance.
If only Webb-Ellis hadn't given them the ball back!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 10:06
Did they really install a pitch without asking the host club if they would play any matches on it ?

Any player would have said " we prefer a grass pitch" if asked. Anyone in their right mind would also have said that there would be increased injury levels. 

I think we are way past being "fair" to the RFU. How about them being fair to their members and giving them what they want. Massive overspend on the East stand sucking up to the corporate world has resulted in the grassroots getting shafted again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neasham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 11:47
Home clubs get free 12 hours a week .. Saturday afternoon first XV or second XV game, Tuesday and Thursday training, and Sunday junior game is the norm.
It's obviously other clubs in the area who are not flocking to use the facility and pay £10 an hour, which is not surprising given tribal loyalties.
Main outside use seems to be schools and RFU junior tournaments on weekday afternoons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 12:13
Originally posted by Neasham Neasham wrote:

Home clubs get free 12 hours a week .. Saturday afternoon first XV or second XV game, Tuesday and Thursday training, and Sunday junior game is the norm.
It's obviously other clubs in the area who are not flocking to use the facility and pay £10 an hour, which is not surprising given tribal loyalties.
Main outside use seems to be schools and RFU junior tournaments on weekday afternoons.

If you take out those slots then there isn't much room for another club to use the facility anyway.
Realistically there is only Monday & Thursday evenings left for another club to use, so the whole concept is deeply flawed.
How did they base any sort of business plan on another club using the pitch on a Monday & Thursday evening ? The income would be negligible. Looks like a serious lack of management challenge to the whole idea in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neasham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 12:27
Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:

Originally posted by Neasham Neasham wrote:

Home clubs get free 12 hours a week .. Saturday afternoon first XV or second XV game, Tuesday and Thursday training, and Sunday junior game is the norm.
It's obviously other clubs in the area who are not flocking to use the facility and pay £10 an hour, which is not surprising given tribal loyalties.
Main outside use seems to be schools and RFU junior tournaments on weekday afternoons.

If you take out those slots then there isn't much room for another club to use the facility anyway.
Realistically there is only Monday & Thursday evenings left for another club to use, so the whole concept is deeply flawed.
How did they base any sort of business plan on another club using the pitch on a Monday & Thursday evening ? The income would be negligible. Looks like a serious lack of management challenge to the whole idea in the first place.


Very true
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 12:41
They do get rented out for non rugby activities like 5 aside as well.

I think however the issue is that they looked at the income that the clubs already with AGP pitches were getting and then assumed that would scale up with their installs - without considering

a) How long did it take to build that kind of user base up ? 

b) If there is greater availability would it drive down prices due to inelastic demand.

Take for instance in Berkshire - go back 5  or 6 years and the only AGP pitch really was Maidenhead who through various means (sponsors and matched funding etc) had managed to get one installed pre Allianz park getting theirs. It means Maidenhead get the bookings from Berks RFU, travelling sides (the Italians used it pre 6N one year) and it even gets used by other clubs for matches ( a couple of seasons ago Bracknell had to rent it to use to fulfill a N3 league match). Now there is also a pitch at Wellington school and others going in at schools, plus Rams are getting an AGP and Aylesbury already have one along with Surrey Sports park both of which are not very far away in the grand scheme of things.  So any money people are willing to pay to use a 4G is now being shared between more pitches.

I actually said on this board somewhere when the first tranche of RFU funded AGP's were being announced that I hope they had actually taken into account the effect of extra supply on demand per pitch


Edited by Dad - 19 Jun 2018 at 12:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 15:50
£10ph - if that is the correct figure - would seem to be rather cheap, especially if this includes floodlighting?

I played hockey many years ago and we were paying more than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 16:04
Isn't it a bit strange that none of us have heard what was said at any RFU meeting with a potential host club when they pitched the idea to the clubs ? ( possible exception of Neasham)

All the questions and usage & income numbers quoted on here are absolutely basic and just don't add up yet £50 million !!!!!! was pledged to be spent. Surely someone out there was present at one of the meetings where someone thought it was a good idea ?
Anyone ?
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 16:59
I don't sit on the CGB so haven't been involved in the discussions but I did hear its Chair talk about this at the NCA AGM and my Club was also approached about hosting an AGP, even though strictly we don't qualify. 

Caveats aside, I think the concept is a good one. The money was to fund 50 pitches across the country with floodlighting, particularly in areas where many fixtures are lost to the weather. The review seems sensible, assessing what the usage has been, what the revenue is against budget, what the injury statistics are and to test whether the assumptions made were correct. That's good business practice. 

I know from discussions at my Club that the use of AGPs requires a change in mindset. For example, having one AGP would enable all of our Junior teams to use it for training and matches on a Sunday, but they would have to accept staggered times so that, as happens in New Zealand, they would play one after the other rather than at the same time. That already happens in hockey and some junior football but it may be alien to rugby as it might stop fathers getting legless in the Clubhouse after their sons' matches!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thelazy8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 17:04
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

£10ph - if that is the correct figure - would seem to be rather cheap, especially if this includes floodlighting?

I played hockey many years ago and we were paying more than that.

I think the £10 is a 1st season price for local rugby clubs. After that it goes up but will still be discounted and I believe around the £30 mark. ( Still reasonable)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 17:32
Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

They do get rented out for non rugby activities like 5 aside as well.

I think however the issue is that they looked at the income that the clubs already with AGP pitches were getting and then assumed that would scale up with their installs - without considering

a) How long did it take to build that kind of user base up ? 

b) If there is greater availability would it drive down prices due to inelastic demand.

Take for instance in Berkshire - go back 5  or 6 years and the only AGP pitch really was Maidenhead who through various means (sponsors and matched funding etc) had managed to get one installed pre Allianz park getting theirs. It means Maidenhead get the bookings from Berks RFU, travelling sides (the Italians used it pre 6N one year) and it even gets used by other clubs for matches ( a couple of seasons ago Bracknell had to rent it to use to fulfill a N3 league match). Now there is also a pitch at Wellington school and others going in at schools, plus Rams are getting an AGP and Aylesbury already have one along with Surrey Sports park both of which are not very far away in the grand scheme of things.  So any money people are willing to pay to use a 4G is now being shared between more pitches.

I actually said on this board somewhere when the first tranche of RFU funded AGP's were being announced that I hope they had actually taken into account the effect of extra supply on demand per pitch
 

MikeGC from Burnage may have something to say about this as his club funded its own pitch a while back and have hosted a variety of games. Not sure what other facilities have been built around  Manchester?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ex Coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 20:05
The all weather pitch at Loughborough university was used for 5 matches on the Saturday that we had all the snow. I live near the pitch at Leicester Forest which has been used by several clubs when their pitches have been unfit. Another use which seems to have been overlooked is that Universities can hire the pitches for Bucks matches on Wednesday afternoon when the weather is bad. This certainly happened in Leicestershire with the university's being able to hire them at very short notice,often only a couple of hours after overnight weather made their pitches unplayable.
The key to making the pitches a success is good communication with other local clubs and volunteers willing to open the clubhouse at short notice if required.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 20:11
NOT £10ph

http://www.englandrugby.com/rugby365/book-a-pitch

UserFull Pitch per hour (peak times)Full Pitch per hour (off peak)
Rugby£90£40
Local rugby partnership£30£20
Other (non rugby)£120£50
  • All prices exclude VAT
  • To book your pitch click here
  • To enquire about block rates and half pitch prices please click here
  •  
UserOpening TimesPeak Times 
Monday1000 - 22001800 - 2100
Tuesday1000 - 22001800 - 2100
Wednesday 1000 - 22001800 - 2100
 Thursday 1000 - 22001800 - 2100
 Friday 1000 - 22001800 - 2000
 Saturday 0900 - 1900 1200 - 1700
 Sunday 1000 - 2200 1000 - 1800


Edited by Dad - 19 Jun 2018 at 20:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 21:43
Thanks Dad - does that mean hiring  a 2 hour slot for (say) a league game?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CalderVale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 23:59
Plus remember if you hire the pitch cause yours is unplayable you pay out for Pitch, and loss bar revenue from both clubs playing at your ground....or you cancel in bad weather and play at your home ground later in season saving hiring costs and earning money over bar......which one would you do as a grassroots club!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neasham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 11:19
Dad.

£10 per hour was an offer to stimulate interest. The clubs in the North East can use Billingham's at this rate:

 Usage on weekdays before 6pm will be £20 per hour (+vat) while weekdays after 6pm and weekends will be £30 (+vat).

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 12:58
We (DMP) have access to Billinghams's AGP, but as already pointed out the 'normal' times we want to use it (Tues eve, Sat PM, Sun AM) it's booked out to them already, I know the girls and ladies have used it some Sunday pm's, and when weather was really bad I looked at taking my U11s there on a different night just to get something going.

The most amusing was when we booked it on a Friday night for a Vets game as our pitches were bad, and they had to cancel as it was covered in snow, so don't refer to them as 'All Weather' pitches!. 

I think the club loyalty / bar takings one is a big one too, we will always train at home and support our own first, there's an element of going tail between your legs when you have to ask another club to use their facilities - maybe there's a way that mindset can be changed over time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 16:59
Originally posted by CalderVale CalderVale wrote:

Plus remember if you hire the pitch cause yours is unplayable you pay out for Pitch, and loss bar revenue from both clubs playing at your ground....or you cancel in bad weather and play at your home ground later in season saving hiring costs and earning money over bar......which one would you do as a grassroots club!!!


Cancelling because of bad weather could also mean never playing the fixture at all (as happened to several matches per year)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 12:13
Don't shoot the messenger 

All i did was copy and paste from the RFU relevant page


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