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Ring-fencing... again

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Puli. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Puli. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 20:42
Winger 14.
I remember speaking at a rugby club dinner along with Jim Kifoyle then Roth coach a number of years ago and he put forward the idea of no relegation then, his fears about promotion and relegation were what eventually happened to your club. However on the night he was in the minority, no one else supported his idea.
I personally agree with your sentiments on the subject, it is an enormous step up from the Championship, but if a club wishes to climb the promotion ladder then that chance should be available to them.
On a different point we may have played together at Roth all those years ago 👍
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 20:59
Originally posted by WINGER14 WINGER14 wrote:

I started playing Rugby in 1959 (School), joined Rotherham in 1964, and retired in 1978. All my Rugby was played as an amateur with no Leagues. When Leagues were formed I loved the idea of my Club battling for promotion year after year, and in our 1st 10yrs we flew up the League's. We left in our wake teams such as Sheffield, Wakefield, Huddersfield, Halifax, Headingley, Roundhay, Morley and Middlesbrough; All of which wouldn't have lowered themselves to give us a game in my playing days, as these were all the equivalent of today's Premiership Clubs.
By the time Professionalism arrived we were firmly established in the second tier, where we stayed for 22yrs, this included two seasons in the Prem. I firmly believed that Leagues/Promotion/Relegation went hand in hand, and always should do.
BUT ----- I have now changed my mind, to a degree. At the end of this season London Irish will be Promoted and whoever is relegated from the Prem will be promoted back to the Prem. At least I hope they will.
BECAUSE ----- London Irish will have a decent chance of staying up, whereas every other Club currently in the Championship, if they were unlucky enough to be Promoted, would be annihilated every week, that may not be everybody's thoughts, but its mine.
To go up to the Prem, these Clubs would have to raise Hundreds of Thousands of Pounds, maybe upto a £Million, on top of what the RFU gives them, to Buy, and Pay for a new squad of players to give them ANY sort of a chance. Most would also have to spend £??? To bring their grounds upto the RFU's criteria.
It could/would be a season from Hell, and could/would result in them being relegated Beaten, Battered and Broke. What chance would they have off retaining players after the fall.

Why not let the Prem Clubs go their own way and see what happens. Players who are good enough would still be taken by the Prem Clubs from the lower leagues. From the Championship down, Clubs would be Semi-Pro / Amateur each playing 30 league games a season.
In my Heart its Promotion / Relegation is Good, but my Head says is it really worth it.

The Titans were Promoted to the Prem and came straight back down, having won just two games, Saracens H and London Irish H. The following season we Won the Second Tier again, but the RFU denied us Promotion. The following season we Won the Second Tier again, were Promoted, but came straight back down having lost all games. This broke us and we were just 2hrs away from going out of existence. Two local businessmen came in and saved the day. They have now been with us for 14yrs.
I never want my Club to go through that again, and advise that following the Dream can actually turn into a nightmare.

If any Club wants to try for Promotion to the Prem, then good look to them, but be afraid, by very afraid.
 

Winger 14 are you suggesting that the Championship and below become overnight semi pro and therefore losing the RFU support and funding . Which I would suggest for certainly the Championship Clubs that were asked by the RFU to provide a second tier of Professional Rugby would ensure 100s of redundancies between  both players and support staff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 22:09
Thanks for the compliment Raider999 but its not exactly rocket science so why haven't the powers that be come up with a similar concept - it would seem to keep all parties happy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 22:36
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Surely there is a compromise to be had!!
So long as there is the "possibility" of promotion everyone would be happy and so long as the chance of moving from bottom of the pyramid to the top remains everyone would be happy?
Why could we not have a play off between bottom of Prem and Top of Championship? (Home & Away Legs) so there remains both a possibility to gain promotion (for the Championship club) and a possibility to maintain their status (for the Prem club)
By the acknowlwdgement of everyone there is a huge Gulf between the two levels so if an existing Prem club can't defeat a Championship club over two legs then surely they've had enough chances and in all honesty don't deserve to retain their status?


So a Premiership club could go all season without a win, then buy in talent for two games and win those on aggregate and stay up. What does that say about the game?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 22:37
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Surely there is a compromise to be had!!
So long as there is the "possibility" of promotion everyone would be happy and so long as the chance of moving from bottom of the pyramid to the top remains everyone would be happy?
Why could we not have a play off between bottom of Prem and Top of Championship? (Home & Away Legs) so there remains both a possibility to gain promotion (for the Championship club) and a possibility to maintain their status (for the Prem club)
By the acknowlwdgement of everyone there is a huge Gulf between the two levels so if an existing Prem club can't defeat a Championship club over two legs then surely they've had enough chances and in all honesty don't deserve to retain their status?


So a Premiership club could go all season without a win, then buy in talent for two games and win those on aggregate and stay up. What does that say about the game?


Wot he said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 22:50
And equally a Championship club with sufficiently affluent backer could do exactly the same
Not perfect, of course, but works for me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Joy of (Level) 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 23:26
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Surely there is a compromise to be had!!
So long as there is the "possibility" of promotion everyone would be happy and so long as the chance of moving from bottom of the pyramid to the top remains everyone would be happy?
Why could we not have a play off between bottom of Prem and Top of Championship? (Home & Away Legs) so there remains both a possibility to gain promotion (for the Championship club) and a possibility to maintain their status (for the Prem club)
By the acknowlwdgement of everyone there is a huge Gulf between the two levels so if an existing Prem club can't defeat a Champuo ship club over two legs then surely they've had enough chances and in all honesty don't deserve to retain their status?


The most sensible, balanced compromise I have read


.......but doesn't it miss the point? Surely the fact of the matter is clear and within the text of Mike GC
's and WINGER14's posts?

Rugby, regardless of code, is a minority interest sport in this country and the cash flowing into it (outside of sugar-daddies/benefactors) reflects this. Let's be honest, the average attendances of second tier clubs are laughable when converted into £ and the costs associated with running the "club" or side on an annual basis.

I've recently read on this board that Championship rugby is a fantastic product, but clearly the vast majority of the paying public and potential sponsors think differently.

Frankly, ring-fencing sends out a terribly negative message IMHO, but it effectively exists anyway, and perhaps a considered debate will be beneficial to all in terms of how professional the game in this country can be?


Edited by The Joy of (Level) 7 - 05 Dec 2018 at 23:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote WINGER14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 00:50
If the RFU would continue funding the Championship as a feeder league for Players to go up to the Prem, that would be great but it wouldn't happen. I think it was around the onset of Professionalism when the RFU said that they were going to call the second tier, Premiership Two, but it didn't happen. The RFU and Premiership Clubs don't give a Monkey's about the Championship, and it doesn't take Albert Einstein to work that out.
How long did it take to find a Sponsor for the League, and then the money that Greenking puts in each season goes into the RFU's coffers and they then give all Championship Clubs about Two Shillings and Sixpence extra each year. WOW.
How much does it cost now to run a Championship Club for a year, I don't know. Would it be about £1,500,000. If so Owners / Backers would have to find around £850,000 per season.
For how much longer will the Backers put their money into a league that at this time, and possibly for a long time to come, is going nowhere.
I've been going to Clifton Lane as a Player and Supporter for 58yrs, so believe me I know what its like Financially to try and keep a Club afloat.
I know this, and my last post, may sound defeatist, but the League can't carry on, as it is now, indefinitely , even if we keep Promotion / Relegation. Whatever some may say, attendances are dropping, as far to many supporters just don't have the available money to attend has often has they use to.
The Premiership now thinks its a Premiership Football (soccer) League, and buying players and paying them Huge amounts of money, and yet nearly all of them are Bleeding money. The RFU WILL NOT let this League go under, so every other League can just hope for the scraps that are left after the Top table has been fed.
I really do Hope that things get better for the Championship, but I doubt I'll live long enough to see it happen.


Bottom of the Prem V Top of the Championship was tried some years ago, for a few seasons. My Club Rotherham played in 3 of these Home and Away play-offs, they like the Top Four play-offs were not a success. As these are played at the end of the season, if a Championship Club won promotion, they would have no time or enough money to put a decent enough squad together for a tilt at the Prem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 09:02
Lots of interesting thoughts but this issue is probably down to just one thing - MONEY.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trailfinder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 09:50
Can anyone enlighten me on how the Mitre 10 and Currie Cup are structured? They both seem to be fairly vibrant 'level 2' competitions, can something be learned from there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 10:38
Originally posted by Trailfinder Trailfinder wrote:

Can anyone enlighten me on how the Mitre 10 and Currie Cup are structured? They both seem to be fairly vibrant 'level 2' competitions, can something be learned from there?
 
Depends on what you mean by vibrant? I think its fair to say that both competitions are propped up by the relevant unions as the Super 15 takes much more of an interest.
 
Attendances fro Super 15 in NZ are up slightly but going down in both Oz and SA, the Bulls S15 average attendance is less than 10K.
 
In those competitions you mention Mitre 10 and Currie Cup are in dire straits see this Reddit link
 
I'm guessing the "Elite" side is killing every other form of the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 11:01
Wikipedia is over there 

Each province organises its own amateur club competition from March to July

There are 14 provinces with professional teams  in two divisions of 7. Each side plays 10 matches over 9 weeks - playing all the teams in their division and three from the other. There is a strict salary cap. 

The remaining 12 provinces have amateur teams and play a 8 week regular season. The top four play for the Meads cup and the next four for the Lochore cup.

This runs from July to September.

The Super rugby sides are linked to provinces and recruit from them and their season runs February - July.

Similarly in Australia there are the club competitions most of which are strictly amateur. - though the Stute shield may permit payment. There is no formal promotion or relegation and Premiership clubs have formal links to clubs in the lower leagues in their territory. The Stute shield has a points system where players have points based on how high a level they have played (with a discount for having come up through minis at the club) 

In NSW the NRC franchises the Rays and Eagles are owned by clubs in the Stute Shield, even though the Eagles play up country and do recruit country players as well.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 12:17
The argument put forward by the Prem clubs that they need ring-fencing to aid player development is a complete red herring. As has been already pointed out by several posters It's all about money and safeguarding income streams
Mind you clubs below the Prem are quite happy to take endless players on loan agreements and DR's to help further their own causes
Different topic but still part of the problem but how about the lower level clubs refuse en masse to accept these nomadic players who in reality are only there to accelerate their own careers
It would be a brave move but would force the Prem clubs to cut their squad numbers and, in theory, reduce costs and really cause them to rethink
I think I know what the response will be here on RM - something along the lines of "bloody hell we won't be able to get a side Out every week if you do that" which raises another question - exactly what the hell are we doing with our clubs? No wonder many can't turn out 2nd's, 3rd's, 4th's etc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 12:36
CQ, think the key thing of note that the average attendance for Mitre Cup this season was 2500 which in essence is about the same for our Championship (well some)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 12:49
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

The argument put forward by the Prem clubs that they need ring-fencing to aid player development is a complete red herring. As has been already pointed out by several posters It's all about money and safeguarding income streams
Mind you clubs below the Prem are quite happy to take endless players on loan agreements and DR's to help further their own causes
Different topic but still part of the problem but how about the lower level clubs refuse en masse to accept these nomadic players who in reality are only there to accelerate their own careers
It would be a brave move but would force the Prem clubs to cut their squad numbers and, in theory, reduce costs and really cause them to rethink
I think I know what the response will be here on RM - something along the lines of "bloody hell we won't be able to get a side Out every week if you do that" which raises another question - exactly what the hell are we doing with our clubs? No wonder many can't turn out 2nd's, 3rd's, 4th's etc


Similar problem in Football - top clubs Hoover up any talented young players, then loan them out to other teams, they rarely get a start in the PL team that owns them. (E.g. Phil Foden and Rubén Loftus-Cheeke)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spy28482 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 15:50
Hot off the digital press!

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/11573195/rob-baxter-on-the-pros-and-cons-of-ring-fencing
Jeeeeerseeeeeeey!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 17:34
Originally posted by WINGER14 WINGER14 wrote:

If the RFU would continue funding the Championship as a feeder league for Players to go up to the Prem, that would be great but it wouldn't happen. I think it was around the onset of Professionalism when the RFU said that they were going to call the second tier, Premiership Two, but it didn't happen. The RFU and Premiership Clubs don't give a Monkey's about the Championship, and it doesn't take Albert Einstein to work that out.
How long did it take to find a Sponsor for the League, and then the money that Greenking puts in each season goes into the RFU's coffers and they then give all Championship Clubs about Two Shillings and Sixpence extra each year. WOW.
How much does it cost now to run a Championship Club for a year, I don't know. Would it be about £1,500,000. If so Owners / Backers would have to find around £850,000 per season.
For how much longer will the Backers put their money into a league that at this time, and possibly for a long time to come, is going nowhere.
I've been going to Clifton Lane as a Player and Supporter for 58yrs, so believe me I know what its like Financially to try and keep a Club afloat.
I know this, and my last post, may sound defeatist, but the League can't carry on, as it is now, indefinitely , even if we keep Promotion / Relegation. Whatever some may say, attendances are dropping, as far to many supporters just don't have the available money to attend has often has they use to.
The Premiership now thinks its a Premiership Football (soccer) League, and buying players and paying them Huge amounts of money, and yet nearly all of them are Bleeding money. The RFU WILL NOT let this League go under, so every other League can just hope for the scraps that are left after the Top table has been fed.
I really do Hope that things get better for the Championship, but I doubt I'll live long enough to see it happen.


Bottom of the Prem V Top of the Championship was tried some years ago, for a few seasons. My Club Rotherham played in 3 of these Home and Away play-offs, they like the Top Four play-offs were not a success. As these are played at the end of the season, if a Championship Club won promotion, they would have no time or enough money to put a decent enough squad together for a tilt at the Prem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 17:35
My mistake I was about to congratulate W14 for a sensible and relevant post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 18:37
If the Prem was ring fenced then half of the teams in it would cut their playing staff drastically, probably to the level of a top Championship side, so that they can cut costs and re-coup some of the accumulated losses.
If you can’t get relegated you don’t need to win.
The more affluent clubs would sign the better internationals from the cost cutting clubs and you would have a massive gulf within the Prem.
I just see lose all round from ring fencing.
And what about the spectators? They would say ‘what’s the point?’ Part of the excitement as a fan is not just trying to win trophies, but also of not being relegated. You ask the Sale and Worcester fans from last year.
Yes, it was tough for the Irish, but they have a good chance to get back up again this season.
What is it they say ... nothing is forever ... well it looks as though some ‘people ‘ are trying to change that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 18:51
Can anyone provide any information/evidence that Premiership teams who aren't in relegation danger blood in more youngsters?

It is a crucial part of their argument that if you remove the threat of relegation they will bring more Academy players through, but is it true?

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