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yorky10000 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 15:23
Could we get the thread back to a sensible level instead of personal attacks, please.

Probably a question for Rabbie Burns , how do we find out how many strays are fielded by each team, each week.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 15:37
[QUOTE=yorky10000]Could we get the thread back to a sensible level instead of personal attacks, please.

Probably a question for Rabbie Burns , how do we find out how many strays are fielded by each team, each week.
[/QUOT Ive not said anything about this for months and wouldn't have until a personal attack against my boy. You know what went on. As far as im concerned its over with.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 15:50
Sale FC are still possibly the most fascinating club in English rugby because of their extraordinary close tie up Premiership Sale Sharks and their unique business and rugby model which seems to run the two clubs as one.

It might prove to be a winning formula for Mr Orange and Mr Diamond and provide the captive buddy/feeder club model that Nigel Melville was promoting last season.

I think it may well work on a business front and I have no issues with that but it is very different to rugby as I have known it for 40 year or so, but then again perhaps I am a dinosaur and perhaps I am just very out of step with the modern game.

All good things come to an end I suppose.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 16:03
Originally posted by acro prop acro prop wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by acro prop acro prop wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

So don't blame Nigel Melville. He, like many of us, wants to see more players playing every Saturday. He wants the A League scrapped and those players freed up to play regularly on Saturdays for Championship/National 1 Clubs. 

Ah yes, the form of 'more' that actually means a heck of a lot fewer players, as all the players in NL1 are replaced by employees of the Premiership clubs and their subsidiary Championship feeders.

No, the likelihood is that scrapping the A League would result in more players being available to be the employees of National 1 Clubs - many would stay at those Clubs until signed to 1st XV contracts by Premiership Clubs.

There would be some adjustment to EAP arrangements as well but remember I don't have a problem with them as it works well for us!
The problems arise when Prem clubs take over the N1 clubs as what has happened at Sale jets(ex fc)

But they haven't have they?
Now if you are seasoned supporter or part of the running of the club Mr Evans you certainly know that the jets(ex fc) is run by sale sharks for sale sharks and I assume you are one of the sharks "yes" men. I suppose the jets asked to renege on the DRs for the hell of it.... no!!! it was sale sharks to make sure the plans for the sharks not to be derailed by the jets getting relegated and Mr oranges investment in the jets to be in vain.

Well firstly I'm not a supporter of either Sale Sharks or Sale FC, secondly I'm not part of the running of the club (I live over two hundred miles away), thirdly I'm not a "yes" man for anyone (so much for your assumptions eh?) and fourthly I have no idea why Sale reneged on the DR agreement (and won't make any assumption because we have just seen how foolish making assumptions can make someone look haven't we?).

The clue to my post was the question mark at the end. It meant I was asking a question as all I had read on the subject previously suggested it wasn't a takeover and that after Sale FC's previous experiences their new constitution wouldn't allow this to happen.

I was rather hoping someone who doesn't make wild accusations to support their own personal agenda might answer my question but thanks for your effort (which I shall put in the "doesn't know" pile) anyway.

Do have a lovely day.
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acro prop View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 16:15
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by acro prop acro prop wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by acro prop acro prop wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

So don't blame Nigel Melville. He, like many of us, wants to see more players playing every Saturday. He wants the A League scrapped and those players freed up to play regularly on Saturdays for Championship/National 1 Clubs. 

Ah yes, the form of 'more' that actually means a heck of a lot fewer players, as all the players in NL1 are replaced by employees of the Premiership clubs and their subsidiary Championship feeders.

No, the likelihood is that scrapping the A League would result in more players being available to be the employees of National 1 Clubs - many would stay at those Clubs until signed to 1st XV contracts by Premiership Clubs.

There would be some adjustment to EAP arrangements as well but remember I don't have a problem with them as it works well for us!
The problems arise when Prem clubs take over the N1 clubs as what has happened at Sale jets(ex fc)

But they haven't have they?
Now if you are seasoned supporter or part of the running of the club Mr Evans you certainly know that the jets(ex fc) is run by sale sharks for sale sharks and I assume you are one of the sharks "yes" men. I suppose the jets asked to renege on the DRs for the hell of it.... no!!! it was sale sharks to make sure the plans for the sharks not to be derailed by the jets getting relegated and Mr oranges investment in the jets to be in vain.

Well firstly I'm not a supporter of either Sale Sharks or Sale FC, secondly I'm not part of the running of the club (I live over two hundred miles away), thirdly I'm not a "yes" man for anyone (so much for your assumptions eh?) and fourthly I have no idea why Sale reneged on the DR agreement (and won't make any assumption because we have just seen how foolish making assumptions can make someone look haven't we?).

The clue to my post was the question mark at the end. It meant I was asking a question as all I had read on the subject previously suggested it wasn't a takeover and that after Sale FC's previous experiences their new constitution wouldn't allow this to happen.

I was rather hoping someone who doesn't make wild accusations to support their own personal agenda might answer my question but thanks for your effort (which I shall put in the "doesn't know" pile) anyway.

Do have a lovely day.
My answer uses the word "if" and "are" and no assumptions or accusations are ever made by myself unless I can prove it ….believe me.
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 17:05
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Sale FC are still possibly the most fascinating club in English rugby because of their extraordinary close tie up Premiership Sale Sharks and their unique business and rugby model which seems to run the two clubs as one.

It might prove to be a winning formula for Mr Orange and Mr Diamond and provide the captive buddy/feeder club model that Nigel Melville was promoting last season.

I think it may well work on a business front and I have no issues with that but it is very different to rugby as I have known it for 40 year or so, but then again perhaps I am a dinosaur and perhaps I am just very out of step with the modern game.

All good things come to an end I suppose.


I do get the impression the set up is a way of getting the premier clubs reserves a regular game at the highest possible level.

It seems this is the sort of relationship the RFU wants all Premiership clubs to have.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 17:15
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Sale FC are still possibly the most fascinating club in English rugby because of their extraordinary close tie up Premiership Sale Sharks and their unique business and rugby model which seems to run the two clubs as one.

It might prove to be a winning formula for Mr Orange and Mr Diamond and provide the captive buddy/feeder club model that Nigel Melville was promoting last season.

I think it may well work on a business front and I have no issues with that but it is very different to rugby as I have known it for 40 year or so, but then again perhaps I am a dinosaur and perhaps I am just very out of step with the modern game.

All good things come to an end I suppose.


I do get the impression the set up is a way of getting the premier clubs reserves a regular game at the highest possible level.

It seems this is the sort of relationship the RFU wants all Premiership clubs to have.

I agree Raider999 and that is probably the reason that there appears to have been no official disquiet from the RFU regarding the rugby/business model that Sale Sharks and Sale FC have adopted. It is likely that the RFU thinks this is a good thing and I think it is for Sale Sharks who with their partner club Sale FC have an ability to provide meaningful competition for their bench and reserve players and through the appropriate funding of Sale FC by Corp Acq possibly also legitimately be able to finesse the Premiership's salary cap.

I have always thought that professional rugby was a bonkers financial investment but with CVC's £200m to acquire a minority investment in Premiership Rugby Simon Orange's acquisition of Sale Sharks from Brian Kennedy looks like amazing foresight.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 18:09
Originally posted by acro prop acro prop wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by acro prop acro prop wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by acro prop acro prop wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

So don't blame Nigel Melville. He, like many of us, wants to see more players playing every Saturday. He wants the A League scrapped and those players freed up to play regularly on Saturdays for Championship/National 1 Clubs. 

Ah yes, the form of 'more' that actually means a heck of a lot fewer players, as all the players in NL1 are replaced by employees of the Premiership clubs and their subsidiary Championship feeders.

No, the likelihood is that scrapping the A League would result in more players being available to be the employees of National 1 Clubs - many would stay at those Clubs until signed to 1st XV contracts by Premiership Clubs.

There would be some adjustment to EAP arrangements as well but remember I don't have a problem with them as it works well for us!
The problems arise when Prem clubs take over the N1 clubs as what has happened at Sale jets(ex fc)

But they haven't have they?
Now if you are seasoned supporter or part of the running of the club Mr Evans you certainly know that the jets(ex fc) is run by sale sharks for sale sharks and I assume you are one of the sharks "yes" men. I suppose the jets asked to renege on the DRs for the hell of it.... no!!! it was sale sharks to make sure the plans for the sharks not to be derailed by the jets getting relegated and Mr oranges investment in the jets to be in vain.

Well firstly I'm not a supporter of either Sale Sharks or Sale FC, secondly I'm not part of the running of the club (I live over two hundred miles away), thirdly I'm not a "yes" man for anyone (so much for your assumptions eh?) and fourthly I have no idea why Sale reneged on the DR agreement (and won't make any assumption because we have just seen how foolish making assumptions can make someone look haven't we?).

The clue to my post was the question mark at the end. It meant I was asking a question as all I had read on the subject previously suggested it wasn't a takeover and that after Sale FC's previous experiences their new constitution wouldn't allow this to happen.

I was rather hoping someone who doesn't make wild accusations to support their own personal agenda might answer my question but thanks for your effort (which I shall put in the "doesn't know" pile) anyway.

Do have a lovely day.
My answer uses the word "if" and "are" and no assumptions or accusations are ever made by myself unless I can prove it ….believe me.

Yet your post says and I quote "I assume you are one of the sharks "yes" men". 

So here is an assumption that you made that you can't prove because it simply has no basis in fact.

The phrase "hoisted by your own petard" springs to mind for some reason. 


Edited by WEvans - 28 Jan 2019 at 18:15
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Rabbie Burns View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 18:30
The only way to be correct is to look at each team on GMS each week and I have neither the time or inclination to do this and I don’t particularly care. What I do correct is when a statement is made which is appears factually incorrect. Like all systems there are loopholes so it may be that GMS doesn’t have the correct information and only the clubs concerned will know the reality.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 18:40
Rabbie,

 a question for you. Can a club change their teamsheet on GMS after they have posted it? ...and if they can when does the portcullis come down on such changes?

I have never used GMS so the technology is beyond me at present, if you know the answer to my question I would be interested to know. I don't want to put you to any bother though.

BE
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 19:19
Originally posted by jimbojetset jimbojetset wrote:

Originally posted by Count Ford Count Ford wrote:

Regardless of the plus/minus points of the actually system in place it surely can't help with team cohesion when you are chopping and changing the side so frequently. It always helps to know your team mates strengths and weaknesses and be used to how they play. The disruption this season seems to have affected Sale FC negatively as most were expecting them to be up at the top end potentially fighting for promotion.


Most of whom? We weren't. We were hoping for mid table at best, staying in the league was the primary ambition this year. As for disruption, the squad train together so its not like they'e never met before. 


Fair enough. Perhaps it was people outside of Sale who expected them to be more of a force this season. As someone who takes in 1 or 2 Sale FC games a year it's fantastic to get to see players such as Arron Reed but I do wonder what message it sends to other players in the squad when people are brought in and out in this way.

If Sale FC can make it work for them then they could be areal force in Nat1 over the next few years
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 19:53
Sorry Rabbie - I wasn't suggesting you do it. I just wondered if it was accessible. By the sounds of it, there needs to be someone teccy involved which rules me out.

I think that Raider's comment below is the most accurate summing up of the situation.

"I do get the impression the set up is a way of getting the premier clubs reserves a regular game at the highest possible level. It seems this is the sort of relationship the RFU wants all Premiership clubs to have."

Also agreeing with Count Ford that to watch some of these players whichever teams they represent is a treat. Wouldn't National 1 be worse off without them? Yes I know there's probably too many, its unfair, but as a paying spectator its entertainment.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 21:40
GMS has restricted access in varying degrees between level 1 to 5 with 1 being lowest. So not everyone with GMS access can get to the team sheets. We are asked to post teams on a Friday which started off pretty well but it has recently got later but normally teams are done by Saturday morning. It has become rarer for changes prior to kick off and is normally only for fitness tests (which teams tend to advise each other about) or very rarely if someone breaks down during the warm up. Teams are agreed well before kick off (unless above). After the match both teams confirm the sheet and it is automatically sent into the RFU. I cannot answer whether it could be changed after this point as I have never needed to try but if you are the away team you only have access to your team but the home team would need to confirm the change so while it may be possible your opposition would find out and if it was a break of rules could report it but this would be automatically picked up by GMS. You can only select players for your side that are registered and appear in your team list, every player has a background of information like EAP/ loan/EQP/contract/amateur etc and that appears on the summary sheet. GMS has gone through regular changes and updates and IMO is pretty robust but not infallible. You cannot play an unregistered player now so no one gets deducted points for this anymore. So while it may be possible to change but probably not beneficial.
I am always happy to answer questions which are for clarity as we are all Rugby people and I hate to see mud being slung around without the facts being known but also remember why let the truth stand in the way of a good story
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 22:08
So Rabbie in your opinion would it be unusual for a previously announced team to change wholesale on GMS two or three times before kick off?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 22:34
Yes since the implementation of GMS I would think that after the first few weeks and as clubs got used to it it is very rare for any changes on match day and certainly not wholesale changes but remember one injury can make 3 changes for example you lose a lock - a back row goes into lock - player comes up from bench - new player onto bench and if you lose 2 players on. Friday that compounds the problem but as I say it’s very rare that this happens. From memory I think I have only changed a team posted twice in our 9 home games and I have only changed our team when away once so in 19 games for us I can only remember 3 times either team has changed on match day.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 22:39
Sorry Eddie I should also put that Iam only talking about GMS not programs or websites as these are done far earlier than GMS. Programs tend to get printed on Wednesdays so are probably the least reliable and this may be where the problem lies in “wholesale” changes. Friday website teams tend to be correct
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 22:45
Rabbie,

thanks for the information. It was all pen and paper in my day.

Kind Regards

Big Eddie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2019 at 13:32
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

GMS has restricted access in varying degrees between level 1 to 5 with 1 being lowest. So not everyone with GMS access can get to the team sheets. We are asked to post teams on a Friday which started off pretty well but it has recently got later but normally teams are done by Saturday morning. It has become rarer for changes prior to kick off and is normally only for fitness tests (which teams tend to advise each other about) or very rarely if someone breaks down during the warm up. Teams are agreed well before kick off (unless above). After the match both teams confirm the sheet and it is automatically sent into the RFU. I cannot answer whether it could be changed after this point as I have never needed to try but if you are the away team you only have access to your team but the home team would need to confirm the change so while it may be possible your opposition would find out and if it was a break of rules could report it but this would be automatically picked up by GMS. You can only select players for your side that are registered and appear in your team list, every player has a background of information like EAP/ loan/EQP/contract/amateur etc and that appears on the summary sheet. GMS has gone through regular changes and updates and IMO is pretty robust but not infallible. You cannot play an unregistered player now so no one gets deducted points for this anymore. So while it may be possible to change but probably not beneficial.
I am always happy to answer questions which are for clarity as we are all Rugby people and I hate to see mud being slung around without the facts being known but also remember why let the truth stand in the way of a good story


Whilst you can only include registered players in your match squad - what is to prevent an unregistered player playing under a registered players name?

I imagine unscrupulous teams having a couple of convenient registrations to enable this to happen if they were going to do this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2019 at 11:46
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

GMS has restricted access in varying degrees between level 1 to 5 with 1 being lowest. So not everyone with GMS access can get to the team sheets. We are asked to post teams on a Friday which started off pretty well but it has recently got later but normally teams are done by Saturday morning. It has become rarer for changes prior to kick off and is normally only for fitness tests (which teams tend to advise each other about) or very rarely if someone breaks down during the warm up. Teams are agreed well before kick off (unless above). After the match both teams confirm the sheet and it is automatically sent into the RFU. I cannot answer whether it could be changed after this point as I have never needed to try but if you are the away team you only have access to your team but the home team would need to confirm the change so while it may be possible your opposition would find out and if it was a break of rules could report it but this would be automatically picked up by GMS. You can only select players for your side that are registered and appear in your team list, every player has a background of information like EAP/ loan/EQP/contract/amateur etc and that appears on the summary sheet. GMS has gone through regular changes and updates and IMO is pretty robust but not infallible. You cannot play an unregistered player now so no one gets deducted points for this anymore. So while it may be possible to change but probably not beneficial.
I am always happy to answer questions which are for clarity as we are all Rugby people and I hate to see mud being slung around without the facts being known but also remember why let the truth stand in the way of a good story


Whilst you can only include registered players in your match squad - what is to prevent an unregistered player playing under a registered players name?

I imagine unscrupulous teams having a couple of convenient registrations to enable this to happen if they were going to do this.

I would imagine it could be done but would suspect (hope) that the likelihood of very serious penalties would discourage it. After all this would be serious cheating rather than a likely admin error as when a player appears without being registered or when suspended.

There is also a fairly good possibility that the said player would be recognised or at least be recognised as not being who it is claimed he is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2019 at 12:34
WE, from your reply I suspect there is no photo with each registration. Therefore it would be relatively easy for a club to register a couple of names as players which don't actually exist. They could then play ringers under these names assuming they weren't well known faces.

Photos at registration would of course easily eliminate this loophole.
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