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Size of players

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Camera Shake View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 19:03
I reproduce the following (without permission - I hope for forgiveness)  - taken from the Yahoo website in letters under the heading of Rugby, dementia and the cult of big hits:

The professional game is now played by 15 extremely fast and well-built players, which greatly increases the chances of injury and long-term health issues. Has anybody considered the idea of limiting the total weight of a team? This could make it both a safer and more enjoyable game to watch.
Peter Jones
Nuthall, Nottinghamshire

Virtually all 'contact' sports such as boxing, judo, wrestling and so on, do not allow the "big 'uns" to smash the "little uns". Tyson Fury wouldn't be allowed to fight Barry McGuigan because it wouldn't be a 'fair' boxing match - all it would show is that Fury is bigger than McGuigan.

I currently can't see any issues with limiting rugby teams to similar weights. I would probably go a little further and support the idea of having weight bands, so you can have 'x' number of players between 'a' and 'b' kilos, and y number of players between 'c' and 'd' and so on. So if you want an 18 stone centre then you'll have to give up some size somewhere else.

Any thoughts?





 


 
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Thatbloke View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 19:08
Yes - good luck with the admin!! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldman1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 21:50
Don't New Zealand have leagues where players are limited in size? I think players have to be under 85Kg , about 13st 7lbs. Could help save adult male rugby
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 21:53
It would be a better game to watch if every player was over 125 kg !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 23:40
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

It would be a better game to watch if every player was over 125 kg !

Come and watch our B XV!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 23:42
Originally posted by Oldman1 Oldman1 wrote:

Don't New Zealand have leagues where players are limited in size? I think players have to be under 85Kg , about 13st 7lbs. Could help save adult male rugby

At Junior level in NZ players who are overweight step up a year and players who are underweight step down a year. I trialled this in Sussex 30 years ago but it wasn’t popular as boys weren’t with their friends. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2020 at 09:56
In this PC world in which we live in, won't that be classed as fat shaming? 

Seriously though, are we really going to punish people based on their genetics and metabolism? This idea is a complete non-starter. Gregan and Faf de Klerk have proven that smaller people can be successful in rugby safely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneagainstthehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2020 at 10:15
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

In this PC world in which we live in, won't that be classed as fat shaming? 

Seriously though, are we really going to punish people based on their genetics and metabolism? This idea is a complete non-starter. Gregan and Faf de Klerk have proven that smaller people can be successful in rugby safely.
Robb
I’m not sure to have the right end of the stick here. The suggested weight restrictions would not be to ensure small people get a game, rather to reduce the collision forces across the whole game. Such a move would not make a lot of difference to an individual in any given collision - the biggun is always going to come out on top on average. However across hundreds of thousands of collisions in thousands of games the cumulative mass of forces involved would necessarily be lower, hopefully with a concomitant reduction in injuries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2020 at 13:40
Originally posted by oneagainstthehead oneagainstthehead wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

In this PC world in which we live in, won't that be classed as fat shaming? 

Seriously though, are we really going to punish people based on their genetics and metabolism? This idea is a complete non-starter. Gregan and Faf de Klerk have proven that smaller people can be successful in rugby safely.

Robb
I’m not sure to have the right end of the stick here. The suggested weight restrictions would not be to ensure small people get a game, rather to reduce the collision forces across the whole game. Such a move would not make a lot of difference to an individual in any given collision - the biggun is always going to come out on top on average. However across hundreds of thousands of collisions in thousands of games the cumulative mass of forces involved would necessarily be lower, hopefully with a concomitant reduction in injuries.


Am I correct in saying some sevens tournaments have a combined weight limit for the team?

Edited by Raider999 - 11 Dec 2020 at 13:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2020 at 14:55
This is not  a solution I'm afraid because teams change too often to make it manageable.

If you want to reduce the incidence of collisions arguably we have to revert to a game exploiting space rather than encouraging contact. This would be difficult to achieve given that generations in both the professional and community ranks have grown up with gym work, deliberate contact and the exploitation of power. Just look at the damage players were prepared to accept during last weeks Fra v Eng match when Eng were camped on the France line.

Unfortunately the only solution is likely to be a reduction in numbers both in the tight phases and overall combined with adjustments to the ruck and maul. None of these ideas are palatable to diehard lovers of the game but something has to change before people stop playing at the grass roots level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2020 at 16:16
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

This is not  a solution I'm afraid because teams change too often to make it manageable.

If you want to reduce the incidence of collisions arguably we have to revert to a game exploiting space rather than encouraging contact. This would be difficult to achieve given that generations in both the professional and community ranks have grown up with gym work, deliberate contact and the exploitation of power. Just look at the damage players were prepared to accept during last weeks Fra v Eng match when Eng were camped on the France line.

Unfortunately the only solution is likely to be a reduction in numbers both in the tight phases and overall combined with adjustments to the ruck and maul. None of these ideas are palatable to diehard lovers of the game but something has to change before people stop playing at the grass roots level.


It has been suggested that reducing the number of subs/finishers might mean players would have to be lighter to be fitter.

I would suggest having 8 players on the bench but only allowing 4 to be used (at the top level)

At level 4 we have 5 subs and can make 10 changes in a game, so players continually come and go - why??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camera Shake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2020 at 18:03
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

This is not  a solution I'm afraid because teams change too often to make it manageable.


Each player in the club is weighed during pre-season. Their club registration will include their 'certified weight' for the season.

I don't think it would take a competent programmer more than about a week to come up with a computer system to manage it. System available to all clubs.

Enter your match day squad and it will tell you if it is compliant/non-compliant, and if the latter, where the problem(s) lie.

Match day squads are already sent in to the league organisers - they too could do the checks to make sure the rules are being followed.

Probably no more difficult to manage than a salary cap.....LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2020 at 14:06
Originally posted by Camera Shake Camera Shake wrote:


Each player in the club is weighed during pre-season. Their club registration will include their 'certified weight' for the season.


That's your first problem. What about the player who puts on or loses weight over the course of a season?

I agree with the sentiment but as with every rule there will be always those who look to exploit it for gain. 

For me the easiest solution is to reduce the number of substitutions to the minimum to ensure player safety in the front row.  If players, especially the forwards, started a game with the expectation that they would have to finish it then they may (and I stress may) prioritise fitness over power. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camera Shake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2020 at 19:03
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

That's your first problem. What about the player who puts on or loses weight over the course of a season?


How many 18stone players will slim down to 15stone during pre-season to 'make' the weight and then  back to 18stone during the season? If the 15stone player puts on half a stone during the season - does that really matter?

If it's really a problem (and I don't believe it is) then re-reweigh half way through the season.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camera Shake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2020 at 19:18
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

In this PC world in which we live in, won't that be classed as fat shaming? 

Seriously though, are we really going to punish people based on their genetics and metabolism? This idea is a complete non-starter. Gregan and Faf de Klerk have proven that smaller people can be successful in rugby safely.


So Tyson Fury not being allowed  to fight Barry McGuigan is fat-shaming him?

Regrettably current news would suggest that even big blokes need protecting in their careers......

It's a shift in the game's culture that folk are finding uncomfortable. The gym work needs to be modified so that gaining bulk is not the be all and end all.

I played rugby at school and I'm very relieved that my kids did not show any interest in the game. If enough kids/parents feel the same then we will have a problem.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camera Shake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2020 at 20:27
This chap knew a little bit about playing rugby - might be worth a listen (sorry about that horrible background hum which I have reduced but not eliminated).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2020 at 21:10
Originally posted by Camera Shake Camera Shake wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

In this PC world in which we live in, won't that be classed as fat shaming? 

Seriously though, are we really going to punish people based on their genetics and metabolism? This idea is a complete non-starter. Gregan and Faf de Klerk have proven that smaller people can be successful in rugby safely.


So Tyson Fury not being allowed  to fight Barry McGuigan is fat-shaming him?

Regrettably current news would suggest that even big blokes need protecting in their careers......

It's a shift in the game's culture that folk are finding uncomfortable. The gym work needs to be modified so that gaining bulk is not the be all and end all.

I played rugby at school and I'm very relieved that my kids did not show any interest in the game. If enough kids/parents feel the same then we will have a problem.

 

The first bit was a joke.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camera Shake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2020 at 23:14
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

The first bit was a joke.....


oops sorry - I had my pandemic head on....Wink


Edited by Camera Shake - 13 Dec 2020 at 09:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2020 at 16:29
The severe collisions have very little to do with size but are more about the speed the player carries the ball into contact. I noticed  Tom Curry accelerates to top speed and carries every ounce of weight into the contact. It is also about correct positioning of the head and a little bit of luck or being unlucky when your head clashes with another players head, elbow or knee. Often team mates clash heads when they are both tackling the same player.

It is a contact sport but when you weigh it all up it is intrinsically dangerous and can be hazardous to health. It maybe in the future all players  or parents of young players will have to sign a waiver to safe guard clubs.
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2020 at 18:57
No7 a significant change is that for generations one defender tackled one attacker. Now at virtually every tackle situation the combined size and speed of two defenders -more than 30 stone each time- hit the ball carrier simultaneously from two angles. The defenders are no longer seeking to tackle the ball carrier to the floor-they are trying to stop any forward motion and in fact drive the ball carrier backwards. I rarely agree with Stephen Jones but his article today about the intro of 'use it or lose it' so that forwards no longer committed to rucks or mauls to ensure they got possession and how that fundamentally changed the game certainly resonated.
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