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Steve@Mose View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 07:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 08:33
Interesting read
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 09:21
Another whinge from the mercenary?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 09:25
Define "Mercenary" and explain why all other oversees players are not. In the professional game all paid players are effectively mercenaries. Or are they are they loyal club men.  

Edited by workerbee - 04 Jun 2020 at 09:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 09:34
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Define "Mercenary" and explain why all other oversees players are not. In the professional game all paid players are effectively mercenaries. Or are they are they loyal club men.  

The one who jumped over from the lesser code for money and to try and get into the World Cup team. Despite having everything given to him on a plate, he said his heart wasn't in it and he knew this before the World Cup but instead of doing the honourable thing and saying it wasn't for him and stepping back graciously, he persisted in taking that spot to try and share in the glory that could have come. When it went badly, he ran away all the way back to the lesser code where they welcomed him back as if he was some sort of hero for coming into union.

I have no respect for him
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 09:52
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Define "Mercenary" and explain why all other oversees players are not. In the professional game all paid players are effectively mercenaries. Or are they are they loyal club men.  

.
Burgess is English.
Granted he was tempted away from League by a chance to fill his pension fund by the money in offer in Union.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 10:05
No mention of Lancaster's role in this - truth is Burgess hadn't been in Union long enough and his "fast track" clearly didn't work. Let's be honest though there were a lot of things wrong with the 2015 campaign full stop! Andy Farrell was another high profile fast track from RL into the national team that didn't work but we're not alone - Iestyn Harris bit of a flop for Wales
Difficult to name many who have transitioned well from one code to the other
Jonathan Davies, Jason Robinson - most others have fallen short of expection (and pay cheque!) 


Edited by Thatbloke - 04 Jun 2020 at 10:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fly Half Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 10:18
English RU is full of 'mercenaries' who have moved to England from SA and various Pacific Islands. Problem is English RU seems incapable of producing either English coaches or players.That bag of spuds on Robbs shoulder get heavier every day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 10:34
I think it's unfair to say England can't produce good coaches or players, now the fact the suits at the cabbage patch don't use them is another matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Welshie7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 12:01
Jonathan Davies returned to union he was not someone who transitioned. Other nations seem to convert the league boys quite successfully......SBW, brad Thorne, Matt Rogers, Wendall Sailor etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 13:00
Jonathan Davies returned to union he was not someone who transitioned.

Transitioned from Union to League and back - success in all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 15:37
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Define "Mercenary" and explain why all other oversees players are not. In the professional game all paid players are effectively mercenaries. Or are they are they loyal club men.  

The one who jumped over from the lesser code for money and to try and get into the World Cup team. Despite having everything given to him on a plate, he said his heart wasn't in it and he knew this before the World Cup but instead of doing the honourable thing and saying it wasn't for him and stepping back graciously, he persisted in taking that spot to try and share in the glory that could have come. When it went badly, he ran away all the way back to the lesser code where they welcomed him back as if he was some sort of hero for coming into union.
I have no respect for him
 
You say "I have no respect for him". How can you not have respect for an athlete and rugby player like Burgess?
You say "lesser code". Did you remark with such 'snobbery' when Jason Robinson was helping England win the World Cup in 2003?
You say "Despite having everything given to him on a plate, he said his heart wasn't in it". Do you not think he might have been the' professional' amongst 'amateurs'? He was so professional, he knew he was being used and rushed into a World Cup squad that he had not been properly prepared for?
But realistically, who would turn down selection for a World Cup squad? The fault is not with the player. Any fault lies solely with the selectors.
I remember the World Cup match against Wales which England lost narrowly having been leading whilst Burgess was on the field. You did not know that Jamie Robertson was playing for Wales until Lancaster took Burgess off, Robertson broke the line for the first time in the match and Wales went on to win.
The RFU, Lancaster & Ford are all culpable in what was a total mis-handling of one of the best Rugby players in the World, at the time. Shame on them.


Edited by Sid James - 04 Jun 2020 at 15:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 17:21
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Define "Mercenary" and explain why all other oversees players are not. In the professional game all paid players are effectively mercenaries. Or are they are they loyal club men.  


The one who jumped over from the lesser code for money and to try and get into the World Cup team. Despite having everything given to him on a plate, he said his heart wasn't in it and he knew this before the World Cup but instead of doing the honourable thing and saying it wasn't for him and stepping back graciously, he persisted in taking that spot to try and share in the glory that could have come. When it went badly, he ran away all the way back to the lesser code where they welcomed him back as if he was some sort of hero for coming into union.
I have no respect for him

 
You say "I have no respect for him". How can you not have respect for an athlete and rugby player like Burgess?
You say "lesser code". Did you remark with such 'snobbery' when Jason Robinson was helping England win the World Cup in 2003?
You say "Despite having everything given to him on a plate, he said his heart wasn't in it". Do you not think he might have been the' professional' amongst 'amateurs'? He was so professional, he knew he was being used and rushed into a World Cup squad that he had not been properly prepared for?
But realistically, who would turn down selection for a World Cup squad? The fault is not with the player. Any fault lies solely with the selectors.
I remember the World Cup match against Wales which England lost narrowly having been leading whilst Burgess was on the field. You did not know that Jamie Robertson was playing for Wales until Lancaster took Burgess off, Robertson broke the line for the first time in the match and Wales went on to win.
The RFU, Lancaster & Ford are all culpable in what was a total mis-handling of one of the best Rugby players in the World, at the time. Shame on them.




I would say one of the biggest problems was that England saw Burgess as a centre whereas Mike Ford consistently played him in the back-row.

A total lack of joined-up thinking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 19:58
Imho the positional point makes the most sense. Switching from League to back row in Union at int level is virtually impossible and even playing centre is a big ask. 

The people to ask about this include the said Jason Robinson, Sean Edwards( good luck with that) and any number of players ( particularly from Wales) who went to league ( see The Codebreakers documentary).

And before we get too excited remember Billy Boston? He would have loved to play for Wales but knew it wouldn't happen due to his colour.He turned league.

Professional rugby is talented ,fit and hard men playing a game for money. .It was Ray French who said " RL is a hard  game played by hard men who queue up for a pint with the fans after a game" so ask him for his opinion after all he was a dual code international in the second row.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 07:14
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Define "Mercenary" and explain why all other oversees players are not. In the professional game all paid players are effectively mercenaries. Or are they are they loyal club men.  

The one who jumped over from the lesser code for money and to try and get into the World Cup team. Despite having everything given to him on a plate, he said his heart wasn't in it and he knew this before the World Cup but instead of doing the honourable thing and saying it wasn't for him and stepping back graciously, he persisted in taking that spot to try and share in the glory that could have come. When it went badly, he ran away all the way back to the lesser code where they welcomed him back as if he was some sort of hero for coming into union.
I have no respect for him
 
You say "I have no respect for him". How can you not have respect for an athlete and rugby player like Burgess?
You say "lesser code". Did you remark with such 'snobbery' when Jason Robinson was helping England win the World Cup in 2003?
You say "Despite having everything given to him on a plate, he said his heart wasn't in it". Do you not think he might have been the' professional' amongst 'amateurs'? He was so professional, he knew he was being used and rushed into a World Cup squad that he had not been properly prepared for?
But realistically, who would turn down selection for a World Cup squad? The fault is not with the player. Any fault lies solely with the selectors.
I remember the World Cup match against Wales which England lost narrowly having been leading whilst Burgess was on the field. You did not know that Jamie Robertson was playing for Wales until Lancaster took Burgess off, Robertson broke the line for the first time in the match and Wales went on to win.
The RFU, Lancaster & Ford are all culpable in what was a total mis-handling of one of the best Rugby players in the World, at the time. Shame on them.

If he was really professional, he would have been honest and said "I don't think this is right for me/I'm not ready" and willingly stepped aside. No-one would have thought any less of him and he would have been seen as someone who tried but had the good grace to admit it wasn't working. And people would have respected him for it.

But the fact that he did what he did in taking a place he knew he didn't want and then starting coming out with all the whining and whinging about it, even five years on shows he clearly has a bit of a chip on his shoulder and cannot let it go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 10:13
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Define "Mercenary" and explain why all other oversees players are not. In the professional game all paid players are effectively mercenaries. Or are they are they loyal club men.  

The one who jumped over from the lesser code for money and to try and get into the World Cup team. Despite having everything given to him on a plate, he said his heart wasn't in it and he knew this before the World Cup but instead of doing the honourable thing and saying it wasn't for him and stepping back graciously, he persisted in taking that spot to try and share in the glory that could have come. When it went badly, he ran away all the way back to the lesser code where they welcomed him back as if he was some sort of hero for coming into union.
I have no respect for him
 
You say "I have no respect for him". How can you not have respect for an athlete and rugby player like Burgess?
You say "lesser code". Did you remark with such 'snobbery' when Jason Robinson was helping England win the World Cup in 2003?
You say "Despite having everything given to him on a plate, he said his heart wasn't in it". Do you not think he might have been the' professional' amongst 'amateurs'? He was so professional, he knew he was being used and rushed into a World Cup squad that he had not been properly prepared for?
But realistically, who would turn down selection for a World Cup squad? The fault is not with the player. Any fault lies solely with the selectors.
I remember the World Cup match against Wales which England lost narrowly having been leading whilst Burgess was on the field. You did not know that Jamie Robertson was playing for Wales until Lancaster took Burgess off, Robertson broke the line for the first time in the match and Wales went on to win.
The RFU, Lancaster & Ford are all culpable in what was a total mis-handling of one of the best Rugby players in the World, at the time. Shame on them.

If he was really professional, he would have been honest and said "I don't think this is right for me/I'm not ready" and willingly stepped aside. No-one would have thought any less of him and he would have been seen as someone who tried but had the good grace to admit it wasn't working. And people would have respected him for it.

But the fact that he did what he did in taking a place he knew he didn't want and then starting coming out with all the whining and whinging about it, even five years on shows he clearly has a bit of a chip on his shoulder and cannot let it go.

Judging by your comments he's not the only one with a chip on his shoulder, but then again, we are discussing a RL player and you are from the south.
How do you know he wasn't honest with the selectors but they picked him anyway? You are totally ignoring the fact that his selection was a matter for the RFU, Lancaster & Ford. If you are going to throw mud, throw it in the right direction.
I don't know why Burgess is bringing this up now,. Probably one of our honest overworked journalists wanted a story about something other than the virus.
Why should we consider an honest recollection of events as "whining & whinging"? I expect that suits you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 11:31
Whining and whinging is a favourite hobby of humans. Look at the generals after the Second World War -Montgomery, Patton Bradley et al. The point I'm making is, the bigger the ego, the bigger the sense of self importance and the greater tendency to whinge. Makes good copy for journalists and indeed, this blog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 12:53
Most professional players wants to play at the highest level they possibly can. If your club coach (who is also in the national set up) and the coach of the national team thinks you are capable, you are not going to turn round and say 'no thanks, I'm not ready'.

The only thought I had was if there was any pressure from higher up in the RFU to have him in the squad regardless.

He also does make the valid point that England were beating Wales when he was subbed off, so I'm not sure why anything that happened in 2015 can be attributed to him


Edited by Count Ford - 05 Jun 2020 at 12:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 13:52
Originally posted by Count Ford Count Ford wrote:

Most professional players wants to play at the highest level they possibly can. If your club coach (who is also in the national set up) and the coach of the national team thinks you are capable, you are not going to turn round and say 'no thanks, I'm not ready'.

The only thought I had was if there was any pressure from higher up in the RFU to have him in the squad regardless.

He also does make the valid point that England were beating Wales when he was subbed off, so I'm not sure why anything that happened in 2015 can be attributed to him



Correct re substitution. I often think subs are made to get everyone on the field to the detriment of the team performance.

He is an easy target for the bigoted people who consider RL as an inferior game.

Edited by Raider999 - 05 Jun 2020 at 13:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJB1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 16:24
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

I don't know why Burgess is bringing this up now ...

He hasn't got a book coming out, has he?
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