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Ruck or no ruck - Event Date: 27 Feb 2017 - 27 Feb 2018

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Brizzer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Calendar Event: Ruck or no ruck
    Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 18:43
Well Italy certainly stirred up a storm with their tactics around the tackle. I have never seen this before, but it was inspired IMHO. England were in disarray until they could re-group at half time. I think that genius was then replaced with suicide as England just ran through the holes. Perhaps the Italians would have been better to mix it up in the 2nd half.

So, are we likely to see these tactics used again? And if so, will they appear in the Championship?
We have seen similar tactics used around the lineout by the defending side not forming a maul, so why not at the tackle?

I would love to hear the thoughts of others on this and for the record, I do not think that there is a need for a change of rules and it could actually cause more problems if they did change the rules.... discuss.
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greenpower View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greenpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 19:21
it  certainly  caught england out    so  what next  they didnt fancy rucking   they dont have to compete at lineouts    maybe  they should stop  tackling     refuse to  engage   in the scrum   and    wont come out to play unless  its sunny    Thumbs DownThumbs Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WINGER14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 19:49
Does it matter what they do, I doubt there's many of today's players who could describe what a RUCK is. It's certainly not the free-for all /pile-up that we have today.  Everybody but the Ball carrier and Tackler should stay on their feet, what a laugh. Three, Four, Five players laid on the ground. Players charging over the top / round the sides of this mess, pushing / tackling players who haven't got the ball (didn't this use to be a penalty).  The Ball carrier / Tackler had to crawl out of the way pretty quick, or they would end up being RUCKED, along with the ball.   I have finished many a game with stud marks down my back.
And in the "good old days" we wore Rugby Boots, with 1" studs.

Having said this, I might have missed a Law change, that came out at the same time as the one that say's that the Scrum-Half can put the Ball straight in to the Second Row's feet.

Greenpower
                    You should not have posted any of the above, if the RFU get to read it, they may well consider  implementing  them.  Anything in their mad rush to speed the game up.  
  


Edited by WINGER14 - 27 Feb 2017 at 19:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pirate Pig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 20:51
I'm surprised that it took England until half time and input from their coaching team in how to deal with the Italian tactics. It is well reported that England and other national teams spend time with referee's during training sessions going through the various laws and tactics.
Its worrying that experienced internationals James Haskell and possible Lions Captain Dylan Hartley had to ask the referee Romain Poite ' how they could get them to ruck'? he replied he was a referee and not a coach(almost worthy of a Nigel Owen's one liner).
This tactic has been done before(maybe not to the same level as Italy) during a game and it is up to the opposition to deal with it.
If I were Eddie Jones I would be more worried that his side had failed to deal with the tactic during the course of the game.
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Brizzer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 21:32
A very valid point PP. I think that they would not have got away with that tactic for as long as they did if Martin Johnson had have been the captain. Also, surely messages could have been passed onto the pitch during the half.
So, what are the chances of the Pirates playing those tactics against us on Sunday?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 21:32
Well said PP, I agree with all of that. Once it became apparent that the XV on the field were coping poorly (incredible in itself), it seems incredible that nobody managed to get instructions onto the field. As you say, it seems incredible that nobody appeared to have come across the tactic and that an answer wasn't found. It has been seen before, I've even read a county league referee talking about handling a match in which one side adopted this tactic. Do bottom tier players and at least one referee really understand the game better than the England team.

I'm amazed by many of the reaction to this tactic and confused by some of the comparisons made, any team is welcome to refuse to compete in lineouts or to tackle, but I fail to see why they would wish to. Surely any team should relish the opportunity to flood an area of the field with few opponents around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exiled_Scots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 21:59
It's rumoured in Australia after the England v Italy game that Aussie Jones has gone "native" in England and turned into a whinging Pom - never
Watch Out - The Scottish Phoenix Club is on the Up!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pirate Pig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 22:02
"So, what are the chances of the Pirates playing those tactics against us on Sunday?"

Brizzer,
          I'm just hoping that we can get a fully fit team out playing in their usual positions for the game on Sunday.

Back on thread, I can't believe that Eddie Jones with all his experience from coaching around the world,has a team playing for him, who can't adapt to these tactics on the field at the time. He doesn't strike me as a coach who employs a game plan that is by numbers or inflexible.
I'm sure both Scotland and Ireland will be rubbing their hands at the thought of playing England in this years 6 nations on that performance. Both sides have very astute coaches in Vern Cotter and Joe Schmidt and I'm sure they will have a few surprises in store for England.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Westcoaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 22:13
Wasn't going to join in but heck, why not.....
I found England's confusion at what to do mind boggling; this is one of the top professional teams in world rugby, paid a kings ransom, and for over half an hour , they were clueless as to how to respond.
Jones was out manoeuvred on the day, and clearly caught by surprise.  Nothing wrong with that but you need players who can think quickly, recognise the threat and deal with it.
The Italians upstream of the ball, lurking in amongst the England half backs is surely against the spirit of the game if not the Laws themselves, but then as said above the ball is supposed to be put in to a scrum straight, that's what the law states. Everybody ignores that Law, so why is it a problem if the Italians do so?  Unlike crooked feeds to the scrum, I don't think the Italians broke any Laws of the game.
It won't last at the top level as it makes for a dull game to watch - yesterday's first half was one of the worst I can remember. Had I been at Twickenham, I would have been furious.  Top level rugby is a sporting entertainment business, and that first half wasn't.  Also I doubt you'd see it used a s legitimate and regular by evenly matched teams . Perhaps Italy chose to do it because they thought they were on to a thumping if they took England on up front in the usual way
Fair play tho to Italy for coming up with the idea.  Now if they had a goal kicker and went on to win the game, then imagine what the headlines would have been !!!!!
My take on it:  10/10 for Italy for being inventive, different and savvy
1/10 for England at not dealing with it ON THE PITCH
1/10 for Eddie Jones whinging.  And they call us poms Whingers.  Mate, it takes two teams to make a game of rugby; if one team is playing silly b-u-g-g-e-r-s, it is up to the other 15 to quickly work out how to deal with it. It's a game played by a team on a field, not in a coaching room full of systems and game plans. Go and learn to improvise if you want to be the successful team that you can be.  
Come on Jersey........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grooveavenue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 23:05
Yes winger14 I too and I guess many other contributors have noticed how players pile into ruck without attempting to claim the ball and quite often dangerously leading with shoulders and upper arm. I too always thought this to be a penalty decision but just like NOT feeding the ball straight into the scrum for some reason has been ignored by referees. Scrums to me are meant as a 50-50 - a minor infringment is committed when both sides have equal opportunity to  gain from the scrum. This certainly doesn't happen
Perhaps Nigel Owens  would comment on this too.

I cannot quite see why the fabulous Italian tactic has been lampooned when they were quite within the laws of the game unlike those tactics above. As for 'not in the spirit of the game' - do you really beleivethat Mr Jones and his counterparts are really interested in this route towards success - they will give nothing anytime anywhere any place and I would say 'spirit of the game' has never been in their vocabulary - maybe except when they have been caught out like on Sunday. Thought Mr Jones acted rather school boyish over the situation.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maskedchicken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 23:43
This tactic was used by Australia against Ireland in the autumn internationals albeit not at every "ruck. The Ireland SH that day passed the ball straight to Pockock in Ireland's 22 because he was trying to pass to the FH and he thought PoHuckleberry was offside.

Doncaster have used it in the Chmpionship again in selective situations like after sacking the catcher after a kick off to prevent the 9 box kicking or passing to 10 to clear.

I'm honestly surprised it took teams until this season to employ the tactic. The no offside line after a "tackle" law has been in place for some time & anyone who knew the laws could have exploited this before.

P.s. Players piling into a ruck is not a penalty if they are clearing a player out. I.e. If you go off your feet but make contact with an opposing player lying on/around the ball then you are rucking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maskedchicken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 23:43
*PoHuckleberry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maskedchicken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 23:44
Haha I didn't realise that the forum censored words like that...!! I'm trying to write the name of the Australia 8 whose name starts with Po- and followed by a male body part!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WINGER14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 01:19
In a RUCK the ball is never touched with hands. When the ball carrier was tackled he released the ball and opposing sets of forwards came together, all staying on their feet and formed what was also known as a loose scrum. The sets of forwards tried to push each other off the ball, while attempting to RUCK it backwards with their feet. The ball is never touched by a hand until it is picked up by the scrum-half after it as been rucked out passed the rear foot.
In a MAUL the ball is played with the hands, in a RUCK it's played with the feet.
It was a rarity to conceed a penalty in a RUCK, but in the modern version its holding on, playing the ball with a hand, coming off the feet, diving over the top, coming in from the side, using a shoulder.
All of us have seen, and accepted, many changes over the years, but not all of them have been good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maskedchicken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 02:12
The ruck the way it is played these days works. It creates quick ball for running rugby. I don't know why that is being questioned? It's what constitutes a ruck that needs looking st. Especially if Roman Poite doesn't allow the attacking team to create a ruck by binding a non committed defender in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan Gleebles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 04:39
Was in the crowd Sunday and of the many 'knowledgable' people around me everyone was clueless as to what was occurring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 09:55
I'd have been pretty hacked off it I'd paid around £100 to watch that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan Gleebles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 10:56
£150 for 2. Xmas present. Sunday dinner and beers in the Hope, Richmond. Kebab on the way home. Good day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 11:41
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

I'd have been pretty hacked off it I'd paid around £100 to watch that!

I've paid a lot more than £100 over the years to watch 13 men rolling mauls Cry 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 12:45
Originally posted by Westcoaster Westcoaster wrote:

My take on it:  10/10 for Italy for being inventive, different and savvy
1/10 for England at not dealing with it ON THE PITCH
1/10 for Eddie Jones whinging.  
 
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