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Will England never learn or are they just arrogant

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islander View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2021 at 16:23
Originally posted by Welshie7 Welshie7 wrote:

Wow.....just wow!

A game lost against a Scotland team that rode its luck a little, during a pandemic and therefore restrictions on training etc, and you guys want the most successful England coach (% wins) sacked!

Incredible.....are you same people who wanted him sacked after game 1 of the 2020 6N? How did the table end up?

you sound surprised Welshie, but people losing their $h1t and over-reacting on social media/forums has been one of the hallmarks of the past 11 months...

would also add that england have now played dreadfully 2 games running, even if the first one ended with a trophy...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2021 at 17:28
I think the frustration comes from the fact that the coaching team, most recently the ATTACKING coach Simon Amor, believe that kicking behind defences is the way to win matches and achieve world dominance. Trouble is, even if that were true, we're simply not very good at it yet continue to persist when clearly not working. Compare England's kicking yesterday to that of Russell and Hogg - no contest. Also if the team ethos was to kick in behind then surely it should also be in that ethos to chase the bl***y thing.
For me Farrell, Youngs, Vunipola, (even Ford who at least looks a bit more adventurous than Farrell yet still has a first instinct to kick) are well beyond their sell by dates. There are so many young talented creative players in the Prem. Let's bite the bullet and blood these players now rather than sticking to a method of play that is dull, boring, ineffective and 10 years out of date.
First to do on the job list - pick a creative fly half and a footballing 8! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2021 at 18:12
But to do that you need a head coach willing to do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2021 at 18:30
I agree that Russell and Hogg's tactical kicking was better on the day but share the wider concerns expressed.

Having watched a different game this afternoon with Ireland fielding  a 35 year old stand off I think the problem is deeper rooted than people think. Both Ireland  and Wales looked rather better coached than England - ok the weather was better and the execution wasn't always perfect but both sides tried to play.

I'm not sure which of the new generation of English stand offs could improve things. Simmons is the more consistent player but is familiar playing with a well drilled side whereas Smith and Umaga need a bit more time IMHO. The fact that Ireland are playing Billy B and Wales Callum S suggests that there arent that many great stand offs about.

Farrell had  a poor game ( in ALL respects) but is he not a similar age to Russell and a much more reliable goal kicker?

A few interesting 6N games to come which hopefully will result in more informed comment on gthis forum which is a cut above HYS elsewhere!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2021 at 18:52
A raft of injuries/not playing in the correct country in Wales and Ireland have contributed to the rapid rise of Burns and Sheedy. EJ does not want to play. The Times recently highlighted in an article about how the data  he receives about teams winning etc leads him to believe the team who kicks the most wins the most games. Hoof the ball down the pitch, put pressure on the receiver, make them kick out under pressure so you get the lineout from where you catch and drive, draw a penalty, kick the penalty or kick to the corner and use the pack to force your way over. If no progress made after 3 phases on the half way line, kick and chase. And repeat.........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 08:33
If those really are the instructions issued which obviously involve time spent in preparation then it could explain Englands poor performance.

What it does not explain is the lack of physical conditioning evident in the likes of Billy V ( a point made by Sir Clive) and the lack of awareness when fielding return kicks.

Let us see what happens ne t - and more pertinently who is selected next!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 11:45
England looked off the boil and Scotland lively and enterprising. Hogg was brilliant. The much hyped Russel made a fair number of mistakes, but the rest of the Sots were excellent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 13:13
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:


Let us see what happens next - and more pertinently who is selected next!

Tricky - in one sense, why have the likes of Odugwu & Randall in wider squad if you aren't going to blood them at home v Italy? But equally the rusty brigade need more game-time.

Pretty harsh to drop anyone numbered 11-23 from last Saturday's ENG squad, as the outside backs never got the ball, and the replacements were introduced at a mostly pretty late stage & had precious little opportunity...


Edited by islander - 08 Feb 2021 at 13:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 14:22
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

England like their head coach simply have no class.


Where the Welsh just exude class throughout !LOL

Where does Wales come into it? Certainly not from me as I'm English.

Do tell.

We have had England teams and head coaches who have specialised in being being magnanimous in defeat. Eddie Jones comments can be ridiculous but they are mixed in with an over confidence  and belief in the squad and their ability to win games.


There are arrogant ( and lacking class ) people in all international squads and there have been some stand out examples. Often the comments of a few people, and it is the controversial comments that get printed are interpreted as the attitude of the entire squad and support staff.

Most international squads are told , warned to stay off social media and told exactly what say if confronted by the press. Obviously the newspaper reporters are searching for something that  is different from the spew  of rehea rsed replies.

My all time winner would be another Aussie David Campese. 

So, again, where do the Welsh come into it (as in your initial post)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 15:35
I made the comment, by message, to a friend that watching the Wales v Ireland game was a totally different experience to watching England v Scotland.

Eddie Jones is obsessed with the power game, despite it having proved to be largely ineffective in all games since England beat N Zealand in the last World Cup.

Whilst you need a pack that at least holds its own the current situation is not successful, or even good to watch.

Ditch the kicking, England seemed to put a kick through after several phases as if this was plan A - again ineffective and used several times when there was a clear overlap. when they did kick there was no chance of retaining possession most of the time.

Billy V at no 8 looked overweight and unfit - obviously only had 1 friendly game since last season.

Is Farrell the best 10 in England - having watched the Premiership games, I would say no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 18:35
I thought Eddie Jones interviewed very well post match . He took full responsibility for the poor performance.


Edited by No 7 - 08 Feb 2021 at 18:49
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 22:14
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

I thought Eddie Jones interviewed very well post match . He took full responsibility for the poor performance.



I'd rather he did his job and selected a team capable of playing rugby and winning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 22:37
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:


Is Farrell the best 10 in England - having watched the Premiership games, I would say no.

Is Daly the best full-back in England? No. He isn't the best full-back in the team.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 10:05
The best fly half I've seen lately  is Marcus Smith of Harlequins. All coaches , no matter who, seem to get stuck in a mode where they don't look beyond there 'usuals'. Eddie is no exception. The box kicking farce is another story.
It's almost"I've run out of ideas, I know, I'll hoof it upfield and hope the other team drops it.' So clueless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 10:05
"Their' not 'there'!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 12:39
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

The best fly half I've seen lately  is Marcus Smith of Harlequins. All coaches , no matter who, seem to get stuck in a mode where they don't look beyond there 'usuals'. Eddie is no exception. The box kicking farce is another story.
It's almost"I've run out of ideas, I know, I'll hoof it upfield and hope the other team drops it.' So clueless.


You give them too much credit - I don't think they are capable of thinking, they just follow the default of kicking after a couple of phases.

It all seems to robotic to me as they lumber from one set piece to the next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 15:35
Farrell simply can’t manage a game that isn’t going his way from 10.

As for captain..............so lacking in tactical knowledge and understanding
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 16:28
Absolutely agree on both points Monkey Boy - give me a 10 with some creativity any day of the week - OK that comes with a few errors along the way but so what. Plenty other decent place kickers around too so time to dispense with him in my view. His kicking out of hand is just dire (along with several other ream members I could mention) - never finds any space (or 'grass' in modern parlance) just hands back possession. If as Eddie claims games are won by the team who doesn't have the ball then I'm afraid the game needs to change 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guinness John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 19:10
There are others much closer and knowledgeable than myself, but as I see it the 8 9 10 link needs a radical sort out. Youngs is too slow and predictable. Great at the back of the crocodile or whatever it is called, not got any quick thinking flair anymore.                                                                           Marcus Smith is  currently the best 10 by a mile.                   Billy Vunipola is 2 stone overweight and needs to play a few games, but not in an England shirt. Yes injuries kept some first choice players out but come on Eddie think outside the box (especially the box kicking) Incidentally, putting 40+ points on Italy doesn't count.  
I'm not holding my breath though. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 20:20
Originally posted by Guinness John Guinness John wrote:

There are others much closer and knowledgeable than myself, but as I see it the 8 9 10 link needs a radical sort out. Youngs is too slow and predictable. Great at the back of the crocodile or whatever it is called, not got any quick thinking flair anymore.                                                                           Marcus Smith is  currently the best 10 by a mile.                   Billy Vunipola is 2 stone overweight and needs to play a few games, but not in an England shirt. Yes injuries kept some first choice players out but come on Eddie think outside the box (especially the box kicking) Incidentally, putting 40+ points on Italy doesn't count.  
I'm not holding my breath though. 


Glad I'm not the only one who thought BV was overweight.

Anything less than 40 point win v Italy will be another disaster.
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