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World Cup defeat.

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Touchjudge View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 15:24
Why did England arrive late (less than one hour prior to kick-off)? Had this a bearing on the poor performance?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 15:51
I understand it was part of a cunning plan by EJ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Touchjudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 16:05
If that is true FHLH, then it was very stupid! Any fool knows that one must NOT be hurried immediately before KO. Applies also to football and to referees - here I speak from experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 16:23
It was just traffic apparently - no Jones masterplan or South Africans chaining themselves to vehicles to block the road
Not ideal but as Jones himself said they've been preparing 4 years for that match so 20 minutes shouldn't make much difference
We all know that England are capable of beating the very best on their day over the years but to beat all 3 of the Southern Hemisphere giants on consecutive weekends is a tough ask in anyone's book
Compare that to South Africa's route to the final (Japan and a very poor Wales) and therein lies the real reason SA came out on top
2003 - England beat Wales in the quarters and France in the semis leaving them in much better physical shape to take on Oz in the final (who had beaten Scotland & then NZ in the semis)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geralltrugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 17:10
I have an alternative view. Australia had played 4 matches two of the tough prior to playing England. England did not have to play their toughest pool opponents in a fairly weak group. A game less means less exertion and injuries. No surprise that all three countries who had “missed” a game played to potential in the quarters. Wales had only played well for a half really but despite that and a raft of injuries pushed SA for the whole game coming out equal on try count and losing by 3. No question SA deserved the win but it was very close. The final inmy opinion was a much easier game for SA which they never looked in danger of losing. Attributing defeat to being slightly late to the stadium or blaming the referee is just refusing to accept the fact that SA absolutely dominated up front and ran out very comfortable winners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Touchjudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 18:35
Gertal.
No-one is suggesting that SA didn't deserve to win! However I doubt that you get the point! If you have ever played rugby or football you would know that late arrival can be a considerable problem . Perhaps you were/are an armchair player?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geralltrugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 22:38
Spout garbage on a rugby forum and expect to be exposed for the idiot you clearly are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 08:00
In Dublin during the 6N, Eddie Jones deliberately arranged for England to arrive late to prepare themselves for this eventuality.  It didn't affect them much that day - they put on one of the best displays I've seen from them since 2003 (until the last three weeks)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Touchjudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 08:37
Mark W-J,
Thanks for the explanation. However I still find it very strange. There is something wrong somewhere.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 11:56
Originally posted by Touchjudge Touchjudge wrote:

Mark W-J,
Thanks for the explanation. However I still find it very strange. There is something wrong somewhere.

 

It's not strange, or wrong, it's just bad traffic - have you never been caught in it Tj? They were meant to get there 80 mins before KO, but the delay reduced this to 60. Maybe the people who do the logistics misjudged it, or maybe it was just bad luck & much worse than could have been forseen (they did the same journey with the same size of crowd 1 week previously).

And agree with other posters that the above couldn't/shouldn't be used as an excuse, same as the reffing. When you lose by 20 you need to be more honest and look within. My reasons for the defeat, for what they're worth:
  •  Eng conquered Everest, or Fuji, or whatever, the weekend before, and hard to replicate that. Players who ranked 8/10 or higher, across the board v NZ, were at best 6, and in many cases lower, the week after. Teams who beat NZ in QF or SF games tend to lose the following week (Aus '91 the lone exception) 
  • Physicality of 14 Springbok fwds was at a higher level than we could cope with - especially without Sinckler, but possibly with him too - physicality isn't his trademark. As Sir Clive said, only Kruis of the England bench forwards would be a potential starter
  •  Having weathered a terrible start and fallen behind, we couldn't score a try during brief period of dominance after 30-34 mins. Only 3 points from that attack + 6 more conceded before HT
  •  England were being relentlessly talked up by media and some elements of supporter base after beating NZ. I don't think the players/coaches were over-confident, they were very measured even on the pitch in Yokohama straight after the performance of their lives, but there was no such restraint from outside the camp. Still intoxicated by what they'd seen, the pundits were queuing up to hype up the English and predict massive winning margins in the final, ignoring the fact that England gained no style marks or bonus points for playing better in their SF than SA did. The worst thing is that many of these pundits (eg Jones in Times, Mairs and McGeechan in Torygraph) aren't even English! Not clear whether this mood of over-confidence (historically referred to as arrogance by many observers, especially Celts) permeated the England camp, but you can bet the SA camp picked up on it and used it as a motivational tool for their squad, who revelled in the role of underdogs throughout the week, and then came out hard when the game started...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 12:11
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

Originally posted by Touchjudge Touchjudge wrote:

Mark W-J,
Thanks for the explanation. However I still find it very strange. There is something wrong somewhere.

 

It's not strange, or wrong, it's just bad traffic - have you never been caught in it Tj? They were meant to get there 80 mins before KO, but the delay reduced this to 60. Maybe the people who do the logistics misjudged it, or maybe it was just bad luck & much worse than could have been forseen (they did the same journey with the same size of crowd 1 week previously).

And agree with other posters that the above couldn't/shouldn't be used as an excuse, same as the reffing. When you lose by 20 you need to be more honest and look within. My reasons for the defeat, for what they're worth:
  •  Eng conquered Everest, or Fuji, or whatever, the weekend before, and hard to replicate that. Players who ranked 8/10 or higher, across the board v NZ, were at best 6, and in many cases lower, the week after. Teams who beat NZ in QF or SF games tend to lose the following week (Aus '91 the lone exception) 
  • Physicality of 14 Springbok fwds was at a higher level than we could cope with - especially without Sinckler, but possibly with him too - physicality isn't his trademark. As Sir Clive said, only Kruis of the England bench forwards would be a potential starter
  •  Having weathered a terrible start and fallen behind, we couldn't score a try during brief period of dominance after 30-34 mins. Only 3 points from that attack + 6 more conceded before HT
  •  England were being relentlessly talked up by media and some elements of supporter base after beating NZ. I don't think the players/coaches were over-confident, they were very measured even on the pitch in Yokohama straight after the performance of their lives, but there was no such restraint from outside the camp. Still intoxicated by what they'd seen, the pundits were queuing up to hype up the English and predict massive winning margins in the final, ignoring the fact that England gained no style marks or bonus points for playing better in their SF than SA did. The worst thing is that many of these pundits (eg Jones in Times, Mairs and McGeechan in Torygraph) aren't even English! Not clear whether this mood of over-confidence (historically referred to as arrogance by many observers, especially Celts) permeated the England camp, but you can bet the SA camp picked up on it and used it as a motivational tool for their squad, who revelled in the role of underdogs throughout the week, and then came out hard when the game started...



One thing the definitely can't be discounted, as mentioned is that strength in depth. SA take off some exceptionally strong forwards and replace them with equally strong players. We had to convince Joe Marler to come out of retirement and rely on a bit part tighthead in a Final.

If we are to go one better next time we as a country need to look at developing that depth, we had 15 very good players but little beyond that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 12:19
Youngs was pants and has been for a long while. He made his rep behind a dominant Leicester pack early in his career and when Leicester started to struggle so has he which transferred to England. Heinz would have come on much earlier than Spencer did if he was fit. Only selecting two SH's was an error when we had two wingers that were barely used.
Daly lacks game management at fullback together with poor aerial skills and positional play. Not sure where else you'd play him but having him there just for his big boot is a luxury too far.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 16:57
Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:

Youngs was pants and has been for a long while. He made his rep behind a dominant Leicester pack early in his career and when Leicester started to struggle so has he which transferred to England. Heinz would have come on much earlier than Spencer did if he was fit. Only selecting two SH's was an error when we had two wingers that were barely used.
Daly lacks game management at fullback together with poor aerial skills and positional play. Not sure where else you'd play him but having him there just for his big boot is a luxury too far.   
 
Seems you are trying to be clever with hindsight, England as a squad all played well up to the final, where several were below the levels they had set earlier, it happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geralltrugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 19:50
Mortally wounded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 21:16
I still think it is an England team that are incapable of changing when things don't go their way on the pitch. We saw it against Scotland in the Six Nations and we saw it in the final.

When things are in their favour they are brilliant - the New Zealand game, but when South Africa stopped England from playing as they wanted, they did not have a plan B.

As much as Farrell is applauded, I don't think he is a captain. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 22:33
Jones isn't a coach either, that's two finals he's lost...……………….........……. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Touchjudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2019 at 10:59
Only one nation went better than England: SA! That in itself is an acheivment.............but there IS something wrong when a competing team arrives late for the final of the most important rugby tournament in the world - traffic or not! I cannot tell exactly how long it will take me to travel to any given destination but if there was a pot of gold at the end I'd ensure that I wasn't too late to collect it! I repeat. - something wrong.
Whether or not the lateness had any bearing on the result I very much doubt, but it should not have happened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 19:16
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50321358

At least we know Tuilagi isn't following SBW into the trappings of the lesser code.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote French Connection Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 09:27
There is some nonsense on here for sure. I cannot believe how everyone has downplayed the most important factor in the final - Sinckler's injury and replacement after a few minutes. Anyone who has been involved in the game at a decent level will tell you how devastating it is to lose your tight head that early....and it lead directly to us conceding 3 or 4 penalties at scrums which were converted by SA. Game over.  I said immediately at the time that we were in trouble then, and so it turned out. It was complete chance and that's all. Sometimes those things happen.
And as for Eddie Jones being a bad coach for losing 2 finals,,,,,,,,,,,,,, How many would swap their record for his? 
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